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  1. #1
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    Lightbulb Thinking Out Loud: EPSM diet without alfalfa or soy

    I have a suspicion about the SillyFilly.

    Just a suspicion at this point.

    BUT, what I thought was pine allergy, wasn't. She has lost patches of hair here and there on her body. Face and neck/chest are all grown back in nicely. Body has a few patches. NOT rain rot. No scabs. Not itchy. Skin underneath is a bit flaky, but hard to say if it was flaky before the loss or since.

    They have been getting Vintage Victory all winter. It has soy hulls. Also, Alfalfa pellets to up the protein a little--she is still finishing up growing.

    Here's the thing... Dam was EPSM. No probs with soy or 'falf. Sire is sensitive to soy and 'falf. (FWIW, I would not have bred the dam if I'd know the heritability of EPSM back then. I didn't, *we* didn't... and Dr. V at the time felt if it was easily managed via diet alone, it probably wasn't a problem... )

    Full brother is fine. No issues about anything. (God I loff him )

    The SillyFilly has always had a low carb/high fat/high fiber diet compared to most... but not entirely LOW CARB. Whole oats and such.

    SO. I can remove one thing at a time--do EPSM diet with 'falf pellets for her... or *try* to remove the 'falf too. I'm going to ask about photosensitivity & 'falf in a separate post so it doesn't get lost here.

    Soooooo.... if you had a GROWING horse, and grass hay that comes in around 8% protein on it's best day... how would *you* design an EPSM diet??
    InnisFailte Pinto Sporthorses & Coloured Cobs
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Bits are like cats, what's one more? (Petstorejunkie)



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct. 2, 2008
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    South Central PA
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    Default

    Are you saying that you think the loss of hair is a result of PSSM? Of course it is very likely that she has it with the genetic factor, but I'm just curious how you have come to that conclusion. Have you had her tested?

    I would definitely remove the oats if you suspect EPSM. What amounts of what is she currently getting?



  3. #3
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    Default

    No, suspecting the soy in the Vintage Victory, or the alfalfa in the hair loss.

    Currently getting 2lbs VV, 2.5lbs 'falf pellets, and as close to free choice hay as I can, without actually free choice-ing the round bale.

    1c oil/day currently.

    Past diet, before the VV was 2.5 lbs 'falf pellets, 2lbs whole oats, oil, vits etc., plus 2lbs (dry weight) beet pulp, soaked. Various combos of oil/flax/BOSS depending on availability, time of year, etc.

    I'm pretty familiar with managing EPSM, but at a loss as to protein for a growing horse if I ditch BOTH the oats and the 'falf.

    Beep & oil & vits/mins don't make for much protein... hay, as I said, is 8% on a GOOD day, closer to 6% on a regular basis.
    InnisFailte Pinto Sporthorses & Coloured Cobs
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Bits are like cats, what's one more? (Petstorejunkie)



  4. #4
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    Dec. 12, 2005
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    Default

    BOSS is somewhere around the 14% protein mark... wonder how much you'd have to feed and what other adjustments you'd have to make? what about barley?
    If i'm posting on Coth, it's either raining so I can't ride or it's night time and I can't sleep.



  5. #5
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    Nov. 4, 2003
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Catersun View Post
    ... about barley?
    Nope.. Way too high in starch and I know PP is aware.

    Hmmmm, Equipride is 14% protein with no sugar and way low NSCs.... Might that be an option?
    <>< Sorrow Looks Back. Worry Looks Around. Faith Looks Up! -- "When they try to tell you these are your Golden years, don't believe 'em.... It's rust."



  6. #6
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    Default

    Not *enough* of the equipride.

    I do use up to 1lb BOSS for the 'falf free stallion.

    Erin posted a looooong time ago, and I cannot find the post, about an EPSM horse that did very well on oats/beep. WHOLE oats, and not a huge amount. The nutritional profiles are extremely complimentary, if I'm recalling.

    Keep up the brainstormin!
    InnisFailte Pinto Sporthorses & Coloured Cobs
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Bits are like cats, what's one more? (Petstorejunkie)



  7. #7
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    Nov. 4, 2003
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    Default

    Hmmm, since I'm not familiar with growing horses exact needs, perhaps this is a good time to e-mail Dr. Valentine or Dr. Valberg directly? I'm sure one of them will have your answer in their arsenal of file cabinets

    If so, lemme know what they say
    <>< Sorrow Looks Back. Worry Looks Around. Faith Looks Up! -- "When they try to tell you these are your Golden years, don't believe 'em.... It's rust."



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec. 16, 2003
    Location
    Staunton, VA, USA
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    Default Here's what I feed my babies

    Quote Originally Posted by pintopiaffe View Post
    I have a suspicion about the SillyFilly.

    Just a suspicion at this point.

    BUT, what I thought was pine allergy, wasn't. She has lost patches of hair here and there on her body. Face and neck/chest are all grown back in nicely. Body has a few patches. NOT rain rot. No scabs. Not itchy. Skin underneath is a bit flaky, but hard to say if it was flaky before the loss or since.

    They have been getting Vintage Victory all winter. It has soy hulls. Also, Alfalfa pellets to up the protein a little--she is still finishing up growing.

    Here's the thing... Dam was EPSM. No probs with soy or 'falf. Sire is sensitive to soy and 'falf. (FWIW, I would not have bred the dam if I'd know the heritability of EPSM back then. I didn't, *we* didn't... and Dr. V at the time felt if it was easily managed via diet alone, it probably wasn't a problem... )

    Full brother is fine. No issues about anything. (God I loff him )

    The SillyFilly has always had a low carb/high fat/high fiber diet compared to most... but not entirely LOW CARB. Whole oats and such.

    SO. I can remove one thing at a time--do EPSM diet with 'falf pellets for her... or *try* to remove the 'falf too. I'm going to ask about photosensitivity & 'falf in a separate post so it doesn't get lost here.

    Soooooo.... if you had a GROWING horse, and grass hay that comes in around 8% protein on it's best day... how would *you* design an EPSM diet??

    Grass hay, Blue Seal sport horse pellets, LinGro.

    The get very few pellets, just enough to cover the base of the trough and carry the LinGro.

    It's mostly hay and LinGro, ours are very easy keepers, but I want good strong growth.

    PM me if you need more specific suggestions.
    MW
    Melyni (PhD) PAS, Dipl. ACAN.
    Sign up for the Equine nutrition enewsletter on www.foxdenequine.com
    New edition of book is out:
    Horse Nutrition Handbook.

    www.knabstruppers4usa.com



  9. #9
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    May. 20, 2005
    Location
    Thousand Oaks, CA
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    Default

    I think through your posts about your stallion, it helped us deduce that our EPSM mare was also photosensitive when getting alf and allergic to soy. She is doing great right now on Timothy pellets, Linpro, extra Lysine since she kind of lost her topline without it... Boss/Flax, and spirulina for good measure, and 3 cups of canola oil. She also is low thyroid. Her half brother who is also EPSM doesn't have the allergy issues nor did the mother. Good luck finding the right mix!



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar. 19, 2010
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    Default

    Wow. I am a long time horse owner but such a babe in the woods with this whole EPSM/PSSM diet thing. Struggling to figure out how to help my mare and it seems to be such a krap shoot/trial and error thing with the diet.......

    I'm listening to all brainstorms!



  11. #11
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    Default

    Candico--glad we could help!

    Himself gets virtually the same as yours--and absolutely the Lysine helped put topline on.

    I WISH I could get Timothy pellets. No one up here has heard of them.

    Peas. We need peas.
    InnisFailte Pinto Sporthorses & Coloured Cobs
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Bits are like cats, what's one more? (Petstorejunkie)



  12. #12
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    Mar. 13, 2007
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    Northern Virginia, 45 minutes east of paradise - 2 hrs during rush hour
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    Default

    You can get peas at countryside natural products in Virginia.

    Please look at this thread and respond if relevant to your situation:
    http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...24#post4825924
    "The mighty oak is a nut who stood its ground"

    "...you'll never win Olympic gold by shaking a carrot stick at a warmblood..." see u at x



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