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  1. #1
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    Post spinoff from Canturo Thread....To Register, or not Register....That is the Question..

    Originally Posted by Equibrit
    "Is there some reason to register a well bred gelding ? (Apart from bragging rights) For some folks the only way they will have a quality horse is to breed one. "


    As a breeder of KWPN horses, I feel that it is critically important to register ALL offspring of our KWPN mares, as the offspring can earn "Predicates" for their Dams.....It takes THREE "Ster" (or better, ex. Keur) quality offspring to earn the Preferent Predicate for their Dams (it is harder than you might think, esp. if the offspring are sold....then we have to pray that the new owners will take the young horses to a Keuring, in good shape, and well presented.....). Then the next goal is to earn the Prestatsie Predicate, which entails having THREE of the mare's offspring competing successfully at the International level. Of course these young horses must be registered in order to "count". Mares with Predicates, and a heavily Predicated and successful Dam line, are often called the "Stallion Makers"......Check out the list of KWPN APPROVED STALLIONS......Very FEW will not have Predicated Dam lines, unless the Dam is registered with a different (but Reciprocal) registry.

    In our Broodmare Band, we currently have two Preferent mares, a Keur Elite mare, and two Ster mares, and are working on getting the Predicates, (including the Sport Predicate on some ) on the others....
    Sporting Chance Farm/Dr Carlos and Karin Jimenez
    Breeders of International Quality KWPN Horses
    2006 KWPN-NA Breeders of the Year/2006 Res CH USDF DSHB Breeders Year
    www.sportingchancefarm.com



  2. #2
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    Default

    BUT, I believe it is NA Dutch that is no longer issuing COPs. Licensed stallion and "mare". His full brother is 3 or 4 and has COP but this baby won't get one. I was told breeder may not register as what's the point....



  3. #3

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    An unregistered horse is a grade horse.

    Why would you want to produce grade horses?



  4. #4

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    What is the definition of 'registered' being used here? I imagine it is the 'lowest common denominator' which is a certificate of pedigree. For many of the breeders on this board, this seems to often be looked down upon, however if you are trying to produce performance horses to go to the show ring I would argue that it is sufficient for your marketing purposes to hunter jumper riders/trainers. Despite the bashing on this board, the good trainers are interested in bloodlines, but in a different way that breeders are. They want to know who the horse they are proposing to buy is related to, that is already performing. If you are trying to produce breeding stock then obviously you are going to go the inspection, approval route.



  5. #5
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by back in the saddle View Post
    An unregistered horse is a grade horse.

    Why would you want to produce grade horses?
    If it does the job it was intended for who cares if it has papers? So why wouldn't I want to produce a grade horse?

    I can think of a few recent national champions who are grade horses by your definition and I'd bet their owners really don't care.

    Young Jumpers require proof of age but papers are not the only documentation used. "restricted classes are open only to horses recorded with the Federation
    and in possession of Breed Registry (or other means of identification authorized by the Federation providing proof of age and identity)."

    They will accept breeding certs, IHF papers, IJF papers, PHR papers etc.



  6. #6
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    So Pinetree,

    It sounds like what you are saying is, you want to breed your mares, create foals that you think are athletic enough and people should believe you why? Is it because you say so?...no I don't think so. Is it because there is a record provided by other responsible breeders that have demonstrated that the pedigree on your COP is validation enough, no I don't think so. Is it because you have studied other responsibly recorded pedigree's from responsible breeders, from responsible stud books?...no. So really you are suggesting we should all just be back yard breeders who never learn from the breeding community and continue to breed unregistered, unrecognized, grade horses because it is too difficult to pay for the paper that substantiates their value. WOW. Don't be surprised when people don't appreciate what you are breeding. You certainly don't. I guess it is too hard to ask

    Tim
    Sparling Rock Holsteiners
    www.sparlingrock.com



  7. #7
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    The difference in views is a standpoint issue. Maybe riders do not care about registration and once you have an athletic horse, papers do not matter. But to systematically turn out talented horses is not a random thing and requires breeding knowledge, which requires papers, history and results. This is not a hard concept.
    I eat ice cream; have no clue how to make good ice cream. But I would never be shortsighted enough to think that a recipe is not important to the making of it, it is just not important to me eating it.



  8. #8
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    Jul. 29, 2002
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobinL View Post
    BUT, I believe it is NA Dutch that is no longer issuing COPs. Licensed stallion and "mare". His full brother is 3 or 4 and has COP but this baby won't get one. I was told breeder may not register as what's the point....
    Instead they get something better - Register "B" papers If you have a filly and she gets register B papers - later on ifyou breed her to an Approved KWPN stallion, that foal can move up to register A.



  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyTimMick View Post
    So Pinetree,

    It sounds like what you are saying is, you want to breed your mares, create foals that you think are athletic enough and people should believe you why? Is it because you say so?...no I don't think so. Is it because there is a record provided by other responsible breeders that have demonstrated that the pedigree on your COP is validation enough, no I don't think so. Is it because you have studied other responsibly recorded pedigree's from responsible breeders, from responsible stud books?...no. So really you are suggesting we should all just be back yard breeders who never learn from the breeding community and continue to breed unregistered, unrecognized, grade horses because it is too difficult to pay for the paper that substantiates their value. WOW. Don't be surprised when people don't appreciate what you are breeding. You certainly don't. I guess it is too hard to ask

    Tim
    This!

    I was probably to blame for that other thread too as I jumped all over somebody who "doesn't give a rat's behind" about registering her foals.

    And then I get blasted for using TB mares with 400 years of proof of pedigree.

    And as someone says, it's just a grade horse. And yes, there is nothing wrong with grade horses. But why spend the money and spend hours choosing the perfect stallion only to not give a hoot about what you have.

    I really have a hard time getting my head around not registering your foals. And lets face it, every year there's the token "what registry will take my unregistered mare" thread because nobody could give a rat's behind about registering the thing to begin with. How hard is it really?

    Hey me and Tim agree on something!

    Terri
    COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

    "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.



  10. #10
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    I never registered my performance mare because I never pictured myself EVER breeding the mare! My feeling is that every "register-able" baby, really should NOT be included in the stud book...the rules (for the most part) require that you register the horse before it reaches a certain (young) age....my feeling is that NO HORSE should be register-able until it has PERFORMANCE points OR produces a performance horse...why go through the expense of registering a horse at two that is a dog at six? So yes, I am breeding my "grade" mare (Heartbreaker x Grande Aurora- Grande Saber) who showed through level seven to Landkoenig and I probably wont register that foal either! Papers are only worth the paper they are printed on....too much is made about "papers" when your energies would be better focused on performance.
    Last edited by Jumphigh83; Apr. 10, 2010 at 04:04 PM. Reason: added ZZZZIIIIIPPPPPPPPPPPP.....
    The thing about smart people, is they look like crazy people, to dumb people.



  11. #11
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    Obvioulsy I'm just not looking at this correctly and I guess it's because I'm a TB person and the reason I can trace Stella's pedigree back 400 years is because people registered them.

    And in Europe, you aren't going to have ANY performance record unless your horse is registered.

    And so from your view, jumping high, basically all the rest of the breeders are breeding crap and choosing to register them. While you on the other hand are breeding great horses and don't give a hoot.

    What's interesting is when our Irish paper comes out weekly it always gives a list of Irish Bred horses from around the world. As a matter of fact in this weeks edition I was able to see that a horse we have talked about on some thread on here was second in a big class in Florida - Last News out of a Blue Henry mare. As well as finding out about the National Hunt horses now competing in eveting in the States and doing quite well. As a breeder I find this information valuable and helpful. But I'm only able to take advantage of this because people registered their foals in the first place.

    Oh and the above was about horses performing - not foal scores.

    Terri
    COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

    "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.



  12. #12
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    Wow Equal the liberal education system failed you miserably. What I said was ...going slowly here...ALL REGISTER-ABLE horses are not NECESSARILY MERITORIOUS (worthy) of being REGISTERED...so in a discussion of the MERITS OF REGISTRATION, paperwork is RELATIVE to the QUALITY of the INDIVIDUAL. Do you want me to repeat that??? Wow...you really should go into fictional prose.....or creative interpretation.....wow.
    The thing about smart people, is they look like crazy people, to dumb people.



  13. #13
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    Jan. 11, 2010
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    I don't know how you came to the conclusion that JH was saying her horse was a superstar and all the others were crap??? Huh?? I understood what JH said but points to Equil for being a TB supporter!



  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jumphigh83 View Post
    Wow Equal the liberal education system failed you miserably. What I said was ...going slowly here...ALL REGISTER-ABLE horses are not NECESSARILY MERITORIOUS (worthy) of being REGISTERED...so in a discussion of the MERITS OF REGISTRATION, paperwork is RELATIVE to the QUALITY of the INDIVIDUAL. Do you want me to repeat that??? Wow...you really should go into fictional prose.....or creative interpretation.....wow.
    Yeah, ok. You are the one about foal scores and how performance is important to you. And since most people I know breed for performance your analogy is wrong. But getting a horse to a performance career takes a long time.

    What is wrong with you people who are always on about we live in America where we can do what we say and like, yet as soon as someone jumps on you that person is an idiot who has no education.

    Sorry the American Public School system, where I must have learned my liberal stupidity, has failed. But hey I got in A in creative writing!

    And and um hows about keeping it on topic. Nothing about the part I mentioned where breeders are able to keep track of their performance horses because THEY WERE REGISTERED!!!No having to make 100 calls to track down the horse you sold. Nope, it's right there in the paper for you each week.

    Nope it's easier to attack and get your other grade breeders to jump in on the fun. And pity your mare isn't registered as she is very nicely bred and someone out there might have a sister to your mare, or other relatives, and is looking for information that they cannot find.

    Terri

    Terri
    COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

    "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.



  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jumphigh83 View Post
    Wow Equal the liberal education system failed you miserably. What I said was ...going slowly here...ALL REGISTER-ABLE horses are not NECESSARILY MERITORIOUS (worthy) of being REGISTERED...so in a discussion of the MERITS OF REGISTRATION, paperwork is RELATIVE to the QUALITY of the INDIVIDUAL. Do you want me to repeat that??? Wow...you really should go into fictional prose.....or creative interpretation.....wow.
    In science, reporting things that do not work is as important as the things that do. The overall information gives you a better understanding.
    Why is there an assumption that only top quality performance horses need to be recorded? How would this system benefit anyone?
    Registration is not an award scheme, obviously, but a system to record information and of course the more information the better conclusions you can draw from it. So Stallion A has 3 top level horses-what does that mean unless you know how many offspring he has. If he has 6000 or 4, it would make a huge difference in how you judge his prepotency. Also who did he cross with that didn't work out well, no need to reinvent the wheel if you find the information that suggests that he does not cross well with type b mare.
    And I challenge someone to find an well educated person that would recommend NOT including as much relevant information as possible when analyzing a subject.

    Oh and another sign of being a secure, educated person is being able to disagree on a subject and not feel it necessary to be personally demeaning.



  16. #16
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    Random statement from COTH.
    Breeding my jumper mare to Landkoenig. Landkoenig has reached the $1 million mark in offspring winnings in 2009.
    If the offspring were not registered as foals or yearlings and sold, many people would not have the time or patients (or Registry permission) to track down the bloodlines, DNA tests and so on. Horses are sold, in some cases many times before they have successful competition careers and if they are not registered (and sometimes even when they are) the information is lost. Therefore statement like the above would be hard to come by.



  17. #17
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    I think eventing breeders are starting to care more and more. In our Future Event Horse classes you need to have proof of pedigree, as in registered, to compete.

    I use the weekly information in my Irish Field to look up the TB dams of these eventers and occasionally showjumpers, to find out where relatives are and so on. Especially in this economy, if one were serious about using a TB mare in breeding you might find she already has offspring doing well at high levels, and you might find you can get them relatively cheap. Now you have an actual proven dam line to work from.

    It also makes it easier to track me down if somewhere down the road someone ends up with a horse I bred. They might want more information or they might want to tell me they found a horse I bred in dire straights and could I help. (and yes I would)

    Registering my offspring is more than just what I want. It outweighs just me and my mare. The end game is performance and to be able to keep track of that performance. And honestly, as far as costs go with breeding and that resulting foal getting to competiton, registering is the cheapest part of it all.

    Terri
    COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

    "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.



  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jumphigh83 View Post
    I never registered my performance mare because I never pictured myself EVER breeding the mare! My feeling is that every "register-able" baby, really should NOT be included in the stud book...the rules (for the most part) require that you register the horse before it reaches a certain (young) age....my feeling is that NO HORSE should be register-able until it has PERFORMANCE points OR produces a performance horse...why go through the expense of registering a horse at two that is a dog at six? So yes, I am breeding my "grade" mare (Heartbreaker x Grande Aurora- Grande Saber) who showed through level seven to Landkoenig and I probably wont register that foal either! Papers are only worth the paper they are printed on....too much is made about "papers" when your energies would be better focused on performance.
    I respectfully disagree. The best mares should be career broodmares and shouldn't be wasted in sport. Her value as a contributer is proven by the sports results of her siblings and her dam's siblings. I expect the career broodmare to be better than the career sport horse and there are many very successful sport horses that I would never consider breeding. When we evaluate a mare for the herd, we evaluate her scope and technique in the jump chute, she is started under saddle to evaluate her rideability and quality of gaits, she is presented to her breed registry to document the quality of her conformation and gaits, and then she is bred young to evaluate her production. We do not consider any mare that does not have an exceptional pedigree. If she lacks in any part of this, than she is a sport horse and not a broodmare.

    This is how we go from this mare - http://www.silvercreeksporthorses.co.../Rexana1sm.JPG

    to this 5 year old -
    http://www.sportfot.com/image/book/s...0-003_0669.JPG

    without the mare ever needing to go to sport. This mare produces a foal of this quality every year.

    That said, it is incredibly important for all foals to be registered. It may not be important to you, but once your foals change hands it is very easy to lose track of what has become of them. The papers are the only real means to document and identify the horse and is the basis of tracking sport results. Many changes need to be made in our tracking system and failing to register horses certainly complicates matters.

    Other points to consider ...

    While it may not be as important once your horse is "made", the papers are very important for selling young horses. When we broker unregistered prospects, it is a huge disadvantage. None of the buyers are happy as there is no proof as to the bloodlines or age and it significantly lowers the value of the horses. We sell a lot of young horses and every single buyer without exception is interested in the breeding.

    What happens if a filly you sell ends up with someone 3 buyers later who wants to breed her? They have no way of registering her or even knowing her breeding.

    Why not register? Is it the cost of the registration?
    Silver Creek Farms - home of Apiro & Validation
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  19. #19
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    I am going to take this back to the original question.

    Originally Posted by Equibrit
    "Is there some reason to register a well bred gelding ? (Apart from bragging rights) For some folks the only way they will have a quality horse is to breed one. "
    No one is going to argue about how important it is to register breeding stock. This thread was started to ask about an end product, the well bred gelding. IMHO the only reason to register is to facilitate tracking the performance of a gelding so to credit the sire and dam and provide info for future breedings.

    I am not saying that this isn't an important goal, but IMHO, the registries need to set the tone here by making registration possible without having to go to extremes. Every year I see numerous posts asking "How far would you travel?".

    I would prefer to register all of my foals, but I will not haul more than 2-3 hours each way to do so. Even that trip would be practically unheard of in Europe. If registries were actually refusing to register foals from approved parents at these inspections due to lack of quality, it would be a more compelling reason to go, but AFAIK this has never happened. Yes, it is important to see what is being produced, but at what cost? For breeders along the coasts, registration is a no-brainer, but for those of us in fly-over land it is something to be carefully weighed. The expense is much higher and unfortunately, so is the risk.

    IME, buyers in the H/J market are very interested in pedigree, but unless the horse has a possibility for future breeding, papers are nice but not required, and depending on the registry, can actually be undesirable. (Flame suit on, as I said this is what I've learned from talking to shoppers, not my personal opinion)

    There are several ways to record and have proof of pedigree, for my unregistered geldings, I chose the IJF as their sire was nominated, but there are other options. The quality of a well bred gelding is in no way diminished by lack of registration, it is the exact same animal. It is the marketability that is possibly affected and along with that the dollar value. IME, it has made a big difference for those looking at dressage prospects, but very little, if at all, for H/J. I am referring to papers, not pedigree. They are not the same thing.

    Kudos to those registries that offer registration by mail to the offspring of approved parents. They are some of the most respected as well, so it obviously isn't affecting the quality produced and they are providing a great service to mare and stallion owners alike



  20. #20
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    I think registeries need to make it convenient to register geldings for a C of P.

    DNA testing would be required.

    The AHS offered C of P by mail and I have used it twice on sport geldings.

    I don't know if they still do but it is a great option.

    It is important to track performance of offspring but with non breeding animals, it should be easy and affordable.

    JMHO



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