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  1. #1
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    Default Buyers - does MPT mean anything

    I'm thinking about doing a MPT with our Dutch mare this year, and but really questioning if it is worth the money, as the proof really is in the foals and foal quality. I know mares with performance records stand above ones without them (generally speaking) - but is the MPT something people value? Breeding seems so different in the standards it places on female breeding stock (aka rideability!). I want to get something under her belt, just not sure which way to go yet....



  2. #2
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    Default

    Doing an MPT really isn't expensive considering the knowledge you'll gain about what your mare's strengths and weaknesses are. From a breeding standpoint, I think all mares should be MPT'd if possible, so you know which direction to go in--whether it's Dressage or Jumping--regarding choosing a stallion. If nothing else, it's a credential added to her resume (provided sghe passes!).

    I say do it!



  3. #3
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    I was told by several trainers / breeders / riders - an unequivocal "no"

    If someone was looking to buy your foal out of MPT mare and my foal out of a non MPT mare, if they liked your foal more than mine - they'd buy it and if they liked mine more than yours - they'd buy mine instead and the fact that your mare went through the MPT would have "0" bearing on the entire purchase decision for them.

    I might also be incorrect in this comment, but I also dont believe that the MPT inspectors can assess hunter talent as well as they could dressage or jumper talent, so for me specifically, as the hunter market is what I predominantly breed for, I would not necessarily value their opinions from a "hunter breeding" perspective either. So many people that I did speak with that make it a point to MPT their mares, said that I also needed to get a dressage rider up on her, have her go in a frame with animation and suspension, etc. Well - thats not how my horses would go or how they would be ridden, so to try and do so for one day, for one very important event, just made "0" sense to me, so I opted away from that portion of the inspection

    Would I look to spend more money on a foal out of an MPT'd mare? No - never. I'd either like the foal enough to buy it or I wouldnt, and I would never pay a premium because the dam had been through the MPT

    A former successful show career and/or successful production record would mean far more to me than a good MPT score



  4. #4
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    Default

    Well, TrueColors, from a hunter perspective, that's probably true, but the MPT is for Sport Horses, i.e. those that do the Olympic disciplines. Hunters is not one of them. Hunters go in a completely different manner, and the MPT is not geared toward that.

    As far as Sport Horses, if you want your mare to be a long-term producing broodmare, the MPT is pretty much the only way you have a proving her rideability and showing her strong points. If you put her in the show ring, you pretty much have to take her up to at least 2nd level - with good scores - to have any proof of her talent. All the major registries have extremely experienced judges, and some of them have test riders as well, and they will give you a really good idea of her strengths and weaknesses. If you are aiming your breeding program to dressage, jumpers and/or eventing, it can be invaluable. They're evaluating the inner and outer strengths of your mare. A dressage test just judges how well she executed the pattern.
    Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
    Now apparently completely invisible!



  5. #5
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    Default

    A former successful show career and/or successful production record would mean far more to me than a good MPT score
    So would production record or successful show record mean anything to the buyers you refer to earlier? I think they are still going to buy the foal they like better. Period.

    Let me ask you this - if the mare was lacking a performance record, but was admitted to the registry's Jumper Bred Program based on pedigree and MPT, and you liked both foals equally - would THAT make a difference?

    When you are talking about a home-bred program - I think a MPT is better then nothing - and frequently gives you valuable information and marketing material.

    Those breeders that are keeping their best fillies to go to the breeding shed usually don't have the funds to campaign a mare to get that "oh so coveted" performance record (because you sure as heck don't get it back in the progeny's sales price) and a production record can only be achieved by having foals.
    "No matter how cynical I get its just not enough to keep up." Lily Tomlin



  6. #6
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    Default

    So would production record or successful show record mean anything to the buyers you refer to earlier? I think they are still going to buy the foal they like better. Period.
    Yes it will mean something IMO.

    Again - 2 mares.

    Pictures and data and video available on Mare #1 of her last 5 offspring, so a buyer can see how these foals are maturing and what disciplines they are competing in

    Mare #2 has no foals on the ground yet

    You like both foals equally. Which foal would YOU buy if the price points were comparable and you loved everything about Mare #1's foals?

    Me - I'd pick the foal from Mare #1 ...

    On to show record ...

    Lets take a well known hunter mare like Grande Affair who won everything on the line, in the IHF and over fences and under saddle in her performance career. And then lets take an equally nice mare who is just as nice a mover and has the same overall conformation but never showed at all

    Both foals are for sale, both are very nice individuals, the price points are the same

    Again - who would YOU buy? Me - I'd take the Grande Affair mare's foal every single time, without exception

    Well, TrueColors, from a hunter perspective, that's probably true, but the MPT is for Sport Horses, i.e. those that do the Olympic disciplines. Hunters is not one of them. Hunters go in a completely different manner, and the MPT is not geared toward that.
    Exactly and thats why I said "in my case" it didnt make any sense at all to go that route with my mare who is a hunter mare through and through

    Here is a question though. If you have a successful jumper mare that is at the top of her game and has had a very successful jumper career in her division, why would you want to get a MPT done at all? I'll throw my former mare - Etoile du Galoubet into this question. She competed for many many years on the east coast with her A/O rider up to the Mini Prix levels with good, consistent success every year, at the largest shows from Florida and all States north of there. She is by Galoubet - so very well respected and known jumper bloodlines that are immediately recognizable

    Why would someone need to put this particular mare through a MPT at all? What more will a MPT add to the equation that her performance career and bloodlines have not already done for her?



  7. #7
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    Default

    If you have a successful jumper mare that is at the top of her game and has had a very successful jumper career in her division, why would you want to get a MPT done at all? . . . . . . . . . Why would someone need to put this particular mare through a MPT at all? What more will a MPT add to the equation that her performance career and bloodlines have not already done for her?
    In this case, and with my registry - which gives Star Awards to mares:
    1. for conformation (if Premium)
    2. for passing the MPT with a 7 or above (or for achieving a certain level of performance in the show ring), and
    3. for production of foals (3 Premium Foals)

    Your mare would be awarded a Star for her performance record.

    As to why you would even bother doing an MPT with this mare??? Well, if she scored 100 or more points, but not enough for a Premium Mare, after producing 1 Premium Foal, and an MPT score of 7 or above, she could be elevated to Premium Mare. If she made Premium Mare on inspection, then with 1 Premium Foal and an MPT score of 7 or above, she could be elevated to an Elite Mare. That's why.

    If she's a proven performance mare, with good rideability, and (in your case) EXCELLENT jumping skills, the MPT should be a cinch.

    I presented my jumper mare who placed very well in the 6yo Young Jumpers (placings good enough to qualify for a Star for Performance). She scored 101 points. If I keep her and breed her (or if someone buys her and later breeds her) and she has 1 Premium Foal, she is elevated to Premium Mare. Once she has 3 Premium Foals, she is a 3 Star Mare. The only thing better than that is a 3 Star Elite Mare. That would mean she was a Premium Mare by inspection. She passed her MPT and had 1 Premium Foal so she could be elevated to Elite, and she had 3 Premium Foals. That would be a mare that has proven herself in all categories - conformation and movement, performance and production.

    My mare HAS a good show record that would qualify for a Star, but the only way to elevate her is with the MPT.

    That's why.
    Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
    Now apparently completely invisible!



  8. #8
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    Default

    I think the MPT can be a useful tool in evaluating mares that ARE NOT going on to show careers. At the same time, while I love a pretty horse that has done well on the line, I do not consider that a "show career" for the purposes of evaluating a broodmare. * TO ME * a "show CAREER" when describing a mare's history should mean a horse has shown in USEF rated divisions for more than 1 season, and good results would be placing in the top 3rd of the class. A MPT will tell you the mare has an aptitude for jumping or dressage, and give you an idea about her rideability and movement. For those mares, the proof really is in the pudding. If you have a jumper mare, and the MPT is a requirement for the JBP, I would absolutely do it.

    Again - 2 mares.

    Pictures and data and video available on Mare #1 of her last 5 offspring, so a buyer can see how these foals are maturing and what disciplines they are competing in

    Mare #2 has no foals on the ground yet

    You like both foals equally. Which foal would YOU buy if the price points were comparable and you loved everything about Mare #1's foals?
    Those two mares are not equal, so the comparison is not really valid.

    Lets take a well known hunter mare like Grande Affair who won everything on the line, in the IHF and over fences and under saddle in her performance career. And then lets take an equally nice mare who is just as nice a mover and has the same overall conformation but never showed at all

    Both foals are for sale, both are very nice individuals, the price points are the same

    Again - who would YOU buy? Me - I'd take the Grande Affair mare's foal every single time, without exception
    I'd take the foal I liked best based on it's personality and "look".

    (Not meaning to pick on you specifically TC - just arguing my POV from having dealt with both MPT and show horse offspring...)
    Not all who wander are lost.



  9. #9
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    Default

    I sold a wonderful three-year-old filly to a super home and the buyer's interest came at the inspection just after this filly was high-score in free jumping part of the MPT - so I believe that the MPT does make a huge difference. The filly became an Elite Han. mare and spent the winter jumping successfully in Wellington. For me, it is difficult to get the best jumper trainers to come out and look at my wonderful young stock. The inspections and MPT, as well as in-hand shows, are the best advertising I have for my young home-bred Hanoverians. I'm an MPT believer!



  10. #10
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    Default

    Yes, it would be meaningful to me if a mare has not otherwise had a performance career, whether looking to buy the mare as a broodmare or her foals, and whether buying for breeding stock or as a training prospect.

    But I come from the perspective as a breeder as well as rider, so I am very familiar with the pros and cons of the MPT and place a high weight on the contribution of the mare. Many clients only consider the stallion and/or how pretty the foal is, so the MPT would be of little interest to them.

    So, having an MPT would be useful for the former type of buyer and not the latter. What the proportions are, I don't know, it probably depends upon your market. Hopefully this thread wll give some feel for that, but it is skewed to breeders here and you might want to ask the same thing on the riding forum in your discipline (but don't use the MPT acronym without an explation). Regardless, I think there is no question that having a dam without a performance record or MPT will turn some people off so it is a worthwhile investment if it is at all convenient to participate and it will give you information as to whether you want to keep breeding the mare.



  11. #11
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    Default

    Having been on both the buyer and sellers side I would do a MPT only if the mare didn't have a decent (or any) show record. Unless the intended buyer is a breeder buyers usually want a performance record or the parents to have a performance record, a MPT is (sort of) a substitute for a performance record (in recognized shows).
    Now in Kentucky



  12. #12
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    Default

    My mare HAS a good show record that would qualify for a Star, but the only way to elevate her is with the MPT.

    That's why.
    Tiki - playing Devil's Advocate here - would that elevation through the MPT mean her foals will be worth more or will sell quicker or will garner more interest than if she simply had a * beside her name and thats it?

    I think thats the question here. Does the end justify the means? Is there a discernable larger and better pot at the end of the rainbow if you elect to go through the time and expense of doing the MPT with your mare?

    Or - would that performance earned * be enough in the minds of most buyers?



  13. #13
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    I am a buyer and it does matter to me. I would prefer to see a performance record but recognize sometimes the best mares never compete. An MPT is a proxy for performance aptitude.

    In addition, I have been asked by clients about MPTs/scores when they are shopping for foals. Not everyone cares, but some definitely ask about it and if there is no MPT score they do want some other evidence the mare is a good athlete.

    One of my elite mares has gone back into training and will be competing this summer; I think that her performance record will help sell her offspring (I have one super filly out of her and the future ones will be by ET).



  14. #14
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    Default

    TC, as I said, the Star Award for MPT allows the mare to move up in the Mare Books if she meets all the criteria. Now, instead of 'just' a performance mare, you have a mare that is a performance mare with good to excellent conformation and movement who can produce very nice to top quality foals - and it's all documented, not just someone's word for it. They issue certificates for the Star Awards.

    But, the bottom line is, they buyer buys the foal or not, based on reasons that are sometimes completely undiscernible to me or other breeders/riders/trainers/agents.
    Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
    Now apparently completely invisible!



  15. #15
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    But, the bottom line is, they buyer buys the foal or not, based on reasons that are sometimes completely undiscernible to me or other breeders/riders/trainers/agents.
    Yup - gotta agree with you 100% on that comment!!!



  16. #16
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    Default

    The AHS excepts a qualifying performance record in lieu of the MPT, so for that registry if you already have a performance record, there is really no advantage for your mare to do the MPT.

    I think of the MPT as a good way to evaluate mares who are too young to have a show record. (I don't consider showing on the line to be performance based, although I think it's good experience for babies). For lifetime broodmares I would want to see good MPT scores, but for a mare who has shown, I would expect a good performance record to back up those MPT scores.

    I don't think it's a great way to evaluate hunters, but I have heard hunter owners brag about their horse being out of an Elite mare, so it can be a marketing tool.



  17. #17
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    The one other big advantage of the MPT over straight performance - especially at lower levels - is that the MPT tests movement in all 3 gaits, rideability, undersaddle and free jumping. Again, performance in dressage is about executing a pattern correctly. You can hide some conformation and rideability issues in the show ring with a good rider. Jumping only tests getting over the jump. The MPT does it all.

    Can Hano mares move up a book with a performance record or just an MPT or both? I know they can move up with the MPT.

    With my registry you can move up a book with a successful MPT if she qualifies, but not with performance, *just) a Star.
    Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
    Now apparently completely invisible!



  18. #18
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    With the AHS, they can move up or become Elite through either a performance record or the MPT. However, the performance record must meet certain requirements.

    I can't say how the dressage portion would translate, but for jumpers, meeting the performance requirements would be a far better predictor of success in showjumping than the freejumping portion of the MPT. It is one thing to jump well through the chute and quite another to jump clean around a decent sized 13+ obstacle course with combinations.



  19. #19
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    If your AHS mare has a showjumping performance record, a MPT is not at all needed.

    That said - if your mare has a dressage show record, and a versatile pedigree, and throws a foal what looks very much like a hunter, then the jumping scores of her MPT can tell not just the buyer, but the breeder a whole lot.

    That's the biggest reason I think all mares should be MPT'd when they are young (4). Really valuable information on their jumping aptitude if they get injured, or have a career change, or someone wants to breed them.
    "No matter how cynical I get its just not enough to keep up." Lily Tomlin



  20. #20
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    Absolutely! If you're a breeder from the getgo, not just looking for a 2nd career for a performance mare, all mares should be inspected and MPT'ed when young, just in case. If you don't need her as a broodmare, then continue with the training after the inspection and MPT and sell her as a performance horse, but she always has a fallback with credentials in case she gets injured.
    Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
    Now apparently completely invisible!



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