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  1. #1
    pinto_arabians Guest

    Default Camping Under after a horse trim

    I had to switch farriers after my regular farrier moved. The day after I had one young horse trimmed I noticed where he normally stood plum on the back legs, he is standing butt tucked and camped well under himself. So his used to be straight back legs now look sickle hocked due to the new stance. He seems to switch which back he is resting fairly often. Can a bad trim cause this? If so, what do you think went wrong? Any correction besides getting a new farrier, which is hard to do where I live.



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec. 13, 1999
    Location
    Greensboro, NC
    Posts
    35,764

    Default

    My first thought, assuming it is the feet, is the front feet are sore. Pulling the hind feet under is a way to take weight off the fronts.

    Do you have any boots? you could get some styrofoam (like the big sheets are Home Depot used as insulation) and duct tape fitted pieces to his feet, adding another layer as he squishes the previous one/s down until he's got substance there. Those 2 things provide the fastest relief.
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb. 21, 2009
    Posts
    1,806

    Default

    Can a bad trim cause this?
    Yes.
    My First thought too was that he could be sore in the front feet .
    BUT if that is not the case, then his hind toes are probably too long . A horse who is not sore in the front feet will camp under the hinds if the hind toes are to long or the heels are too low, or both. The stance relieves tension in the deep flexor tendon. Try duct taping a wedge of some sort on his hind feet (something under his heel only like a whole roll of gauze) and watch him stand on that. If he straightens up his stance, you have found the problem. Or put him in soft deep bedding and watch him. If he soon digs his hind toes down in, or piles the bedding up under his heels, it is saying the same thing.
    Patty Stiller CNBBT,CNBF,CLS, CE
    Natural Balance Certified Lameness Specialist ,instructor.
    www.hoofcareonline.com



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec. 13, 1999
    Location
    Greensboro, NC
    Posts
    35,764

    Default

    Doi, didn't think about the hind toes being too long
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  5. #5
    pinto_arabians Guest

    Default

    Front feet check out ok. Hind feet toes are digging into the stall shavings. I will try taping some gauze on the hind heels tomorrow and see what happens. I hope this is the solution. The farrier did mention that he changed the angles on the back feet and he would move like a different horse.



  6. #6
    pinto_arabians Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Patty Stiller View Post
    Yes.
    My First thought too was that he could be sore in the front feet .
    BUT if that is not the case, then his hind toes are probably too long . A horse who is not sore in the front feet will camp under the hinds if the hind toes are to long or the heels are too low, or both. The stance relieves tension in the deep flexor tendon. Try duct taping a wedge of some sort on his hind feet (something under his heel only like a whole roll of gauze) and watch him stand on that. If he straightens up his stance, you have found the problem. Or put him in soft deep bedding and watch him. If he soon digs his hind toes down in, or piles the bedding up under his heels, it is saying the same thing.
    Yes, you were right about the hind toes. Thanks so much.



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec. 9, 2005
    Location
    North East, MD
    Posts
    4,356

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pinto_arabians View Post
    Front feet check out ok. Hind feet toes are digging into the stall shavings. I will try taping some gauze on the hind heels tomorrow and see what happens. I hope this is the solution. The farrier did mention that he changed the angles on the back feet and he would move like a different horse.
    Change isn't always good. Please let the farrier know how the horse reacted.
    "Passion without knowledge is a runaway horse."



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb. 28, 2001
    Posts
    15,232

    Default

    You could always take your brave pill and post photos.



  9. #9
    pinto_arabians Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LMH View Post
    You could always take your brave pill and post photos.
    After looking at the photos from someone else's posting of low heels on the forum, I am would be so embarrassed to post my photos of my horse’s feet. The long toes and low heels on that horse look great compared to what my horse’s feet look like. I am wondering if this is what is causing some back problems. It is so hard to find a good farrier, there is no certification required to advertise and take on customers. The good ones the vet recommends tend to be full and not want to take on clients. One recommended NB farrier charges $75 for a trim and you must sign up for every 4 weeks or he won't take you on as a client. The farrier that did this job said he went to farrier school.



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jul. 15, 2003
    Location
    Tampa, FL
    Posts
    4,343

    Default

    I had this same problem last summer, the farrier was using assistants and they started taking too much heel behind and the same thing was happening with my horses....standing under themselves too much, sore backs and hips.

    I discussed it with my farrier and he argued that the trims were "picture perfect" trims. I argued that most horses don't have "picture perfect" conformation and that you have to shoe for the whole horse, not just to make a "pretty" hoof to look like the hooves in textbooks.

    I also have Arabians...but mostly Morgans and saddlebreds. My belief is that on the flatter crouped horses, you have to keep a steeper angle on the hind hooves or else the muscles and ligaments in the back and loin get sore from the horse standing under himself too much.
    Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts.
    Bernard M. Baruch



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb. 28, 2001
    Posts
    15,232

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pinto_arabians View Post
    After looking at the photos from someone else's posting of low heels on the forum, I am would be so embarrassed to post my photos of my horse’s feet. The long toes and low heels on that horse look great compared to what my horse’s feet look like. I am wondering if this is what is causing some back problems. It is so hard to find a good farrier, there is no certification required to advertise and take on customers. The good ones the vet recommends tend to be full and not want to take on clients. One recommended NB farrier charges $75 for a trim and you must sign up for every 4 weeks or he won't take you on as a client. The farrier that did this job said he went to farrier school.
    Indeed you may have found your source for your back pain...



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Sep. 25, 2005
    Location
    The Land of the Frozen
    Posts
    13,787

    Default

    It was Patty Stiller who taught me how to use the coronary band (hairline) of the hind foot as a guide to see if the heel is too low (possible negative plantar angle)

    http://www.hphoofcare.com/C4.jpg

    I trim to just above the functional sole plane, but I use this trick as just another "double check" to get an idea of the correct heel height.

    If the line drawn along the hairline ends up above the horse's knee, the heel is probably too low.

    (That was one of my first trims on that horse and he had a lot of issues - and the owner had a lot of issues - so the trim was not what I'd call great)

    I agree that camping under is usually from short heels and long toes. Or sometimes just long toes.

    Here is another example of a gelding I trim:
    http://www.hphoofcare.com/HCaseStudyHinds.jpg

    The horse did not have low heels, but the whole foot was imbalanced and the toes very long and he was severely camped under both fronts and hinds (goat on a rock stance). When the feet were finally correct for him, he started standing square at all 4 corners.

    Here's another example of one of my personal horses. Very low hind heels - always been that way. And no surprise, some chronic hock and stifle issues. I had the heels too low here: http://www.hphoofcare.com/MFoot5.jpg

    It is extremely difficult to grow a taller, nice straight heel on her but it *is* doable: http://www.hphoofcare.com/MFoot6.jpg When I can maintain this much heel height on her, she's amazingly sound. Heels get too low, and she gets stiff and creaky, and camps under.

    Her weight is extremely important. Gets too heavy - heels are more likely to crush, which has to be trimmed off, which gets heels too low. Keep the weight good with barely a rib showing in the sunlight, and the heels can maintain some height on them. Environment is also a biggie. Too wet - heel tubules bend and crush.

    So another perfect example of how diet and environment, along with the trim, are crucial for maintaining soundness, and when those puzzle pieces can't be put together, you do have to go to shoes. Horse too fat, environment too wet, heel tubules get crushed down and the horse needs shoes with a couple of degrees of wedge to maintain soundness. Thankfully she lives in a great environment where moisture is rarely a problem and I monitor diets pretty closely.



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Nov. 11, 2007
    Posts
    114

    Default

    Just so you know, some farrier schools are decent and some are not so good. Most farrier schools are only about 6 weeks long. Just because a farrier went to school, doesn't mean he/she knows what they are doing. good farriers also apprentice with another more experienced farrier for some time before really going out on their own. A farrier has to have a detailed understanding of anatomy and physics and a "good eye". Always do your homework before selecting a farrier. Go see some of the horses that farrier normally takes care of. Ask your vet or other horse owning friends who they use, etc. The old adage is true, "no hoof, no horse".



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar. 24, 2008
    Posts
    1,833

    Default

    I was going to suggest that the toes were left too long as well, before getting thru all the responses.

    Seeing that you have difficulty finding a good farrier, what I would do is rasp back the toes in between trims from the best farrier you can find, if whoever you choose leaves the toes long. It is easy enough to learn, and pretty hard to screw up even for a newbie. All you need is a rasp and some gloves and some sort of hoof stand.



  15. #15
    pinto_arabians Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Androcles View Post
    I was going to suggest that the toes were left too long as well, before getting thru all the responses.

    Seeing that you have difficulty finding a good farrier, what I would do is rasp back the toes in between trims from the best farrier you can find, if whoever you choose leaves the toes long. It is easy enough to learn, and pretty hard to screw up even for a newbie. All you need is a rasp and some gloves and some sort of hoof stand.
    Thank you for the advice. I have a rasp, stand and hoof level now. I rasped the toes as they are long. There was noticeable improvement in the stance. I will probably wear gloves next time as I found out why those were listed.

    Since it is hard to get a good farrier and most that I have been associated with are of artistic temperament where they have plenty of clients with large barns and are doing you a favor by coming out for just a few, I think I will just start doing what you have recommended now that I understand what is happening and how to correct for it.

    I wish I had found this forum earlier, it has been so helpful.



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