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  1. #1
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    Jan. 20, 2006
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    Default Pin firing means you can't event him?

    I know I've been out of eventing for a good while, but I recently overheard something that disturbed me. A local trainer, well-respected I suppose,was chatting with someone and stated they'd NEVER use a pin-fired horse for jumping or eventing. Back in the day pin firing was not viewed as a terrible liability and I've evented/ shown many pin-fired horses in my time. We're not talking CCI here but prelim and down. Is there something new I need to know? Enlightenment appreciated.
    " It's about the horse, and that's it."
    George Morris



  2. #2
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    Default

    I also know of a local ottb placement place that does not let horses with bowed tendons go to jumping homes, suggests them for flatwork only.



  3. #3
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Running Fox Farm View Post
    I know I've been out of eventing for a good while, but I recently overheard something that disturbed me. A local trainer, well-respected I suppose,was chatting with someone and stated they'd NEVER use a pin-fired horse for jumping or eventing. Back in the day pin firing was not viewed as a terrible liability and I've evented/ shown many pin-fired horses in my time. We're not talking CCI here but prelim and down. Is there something new I need to know? Enlightenment appreciated.

    would be interested to learn that too...as I've known a couple that went Advanced successfully that had been pin fired.
    ** The difference between genius and stupidity is genius has its limits. -- Albert Einstein **



  4. #4
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    Default

    I've had several... one many years ago that did several long formats up to *** level. Best legs ever.
    And most recently one that ran CCI* level - long format, no problem (with legs anyway, colic another issue). He was fired on all four legs -- assumed he had a really old school trainer at the track. He was only a 2000 model.



  5. #5
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    Oct. 8, 2002
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    Default

    I've never heard of pinfiring having any lasting effect other than cosmetic.

    It is used to "treat" bucked shins (and maybe popped splints) but those tend to heal up and never present a problem again. I don't even think you can see old bucked shins on x-ray - since it's the horsey equivalent of shin splints. Everything I've heard says that heals up stronger than it was before, too.

    But I'm not exactly an expert.

    (I'm just having trouble from an anatomy/physiology standpoint coming up with any reason that pinfiring could have any effect on a horse's jumping career - other than having an effect on resale value for a hunter)

    (also, if it's the bucked shins that were an issue - pinfiring is falling out of favor these days a bit - a perfectly clean legged looking horse may have had the same injuries as a pinfired one and you'd never know it)
    "smile a lot can let us ride happy,it is good thing"

    My CANTER blog.


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  6. #6
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    Jan. 20, 2006
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    Default

    Enjoytheride - what's your opinion on this? A bow is a " variable' sort of a thing. There are some bows that horse's can race on and there are some bows I wouldn't want to ride at a walk - the " fetlock-touching-the-ground" type bow. Back in the day when I trained racehorses, one of the finest working hunters on the MHSA was a horse with both front bows. Firing is a bit different. Some folks do it prophylactically because they reckon all 2 yo will buck shins so let's get it all done at once. I've never personally chosen to fire a horse. I don't think firing, into and unto itself, should be that big of a career determinant. I'll be honest - I'd be a lot slower to invest the time and training into eventing a bowed horse than a fired one.
    Last edited by Running Fox Farm; Mar. 22, 2010 at 06:29 PM. Reason: add name
    " It's about the horse, and that's it."
    George Morris


    2 members found this post helpful.

  7. #7
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    Oct. 17, 2009
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    Default

    I used to work for a sports medicine vet and we pin fired horses. It was horrible in my mind and she did a lot of unethical things but that is for another thread....

    To address the original question: I think that it's sort of like people saying that they'll never buy a horse who has bowed before. It's all about how much risk one is willing to take. Pin firing is used to "fix" or "correct" issues with ligaments (i think- maybe tendons, too) and that suggests that there has, at one time, been a soft tissue issue with the horse's legs. Of course, it does not categorically mean that a horse can't do something (like event or even event at the upper levels), but it does indicate some wear and tear.

    I don't really know enough about the practice or pin firing to say much more about it but what else I do have to say isn't pretty. Every time I see a horse with white spots on their legs I shudder...

    Any vets with better info, please chime in. But it seemed pretty barbaric to me... but I will admit that I'm pretty idealistic and have really high standards for horse care.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals" Immanuel Kant


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  8. #8
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Running Fox Farm View Post
    Enjoytheride - what's your opinion on this? A bow is a " variable' sort of a thing. There are some bows that horse's can race on and there are some bows I wouldn't want to ride at a walk - the " fetlock-touching-the-ground" type bow. Back in the day when I trained racehorses, one of the finest working hunters on the MHSA was a horse with both front bows. Firing is a bit different. Some folks do it prophylactically because they reckon all 2 yo will buck shins so let's get it all done at once. I've never personally chosen to fire a horse. I don't think firing, into and unto itself, should be that big of a career determinant. I'll be honest - I'd be a lot slower to invest the time and training into eventing a bowed horse than a fired one.
    Pin firing is stupid and meaningless, period. It means nothing in terms of a horse's future soundness or limitations. Even if you ruptured the flexor tendon the fetlock wouldn't touch the ground since it is supported by the suspensory ligaments not the tendon so I don't know what to tell you there. Generally speaking a horse that has bowed is more likely to rebow than one that has never bowed. Its a fine line of management with a big dose of luck thrown in there.


    10 members found this post helpful.

  9. #9
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    Nov. 22, 2003
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    Default

    Of all the "common" racing injuries, pin firing bothers me the least. I also haven't seen a correlation to pin firing to longevity.
    Experience is what you get, when you didn't get what you wanted.


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  10. #10
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by blaster View Post
    Of all the "common" racing injuries, pin firing bothers me the least. I also haven't seen a correlation to pin firing to longevity.
    Pinfiring isn't an injury. it's a treatment (albeit an archaic one) most often seen used for bucked shins, as mentioned before, or bowed tendons. You would have to investigate the severity of the original injury to determine what the horse's future usefulness might be.
    I bought a 1992 TB in 1996 who had been pinfired on the left front for a relatively minor bow. I showed her in the hunters all the way up to 3'3" and then foxhunted her 3 days a week for several years. she is semi retired now, but due to hocks, not the bow or the firing.
    "Perhaps the final test of anybody's love of dogs is their willingness to permit them to make a camping ground of the bed" -Henry T. Merwin


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  11. #11
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    Feb. 20, 2007
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    Default Say What?

    I had a horse we pin fired as treatment for a cracked splint. I'm not sure that the treatment actually had any effect (the splint did heal quickly then - but might have anyway), but I did run him Prelim while the nasty pinfiring pits were still a little gooey. The vet said the only issue would be possible infection from the water jump. So we plastered some of that vaseline-like stuff on it. And it never gave him a minute of problem. That was many years ago. In retrospect, I don't know that firing was a good idea, but it didn't interfere w/ competing.



  12. #12
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    Default

    I'm surprised it's still done and would count it as a point against the horse for having been unfortunate enough to be in a barn that still practices 18th century veterinary techniques.

    Other than that, it wouldn't concern me.
    Click here before you buy.


    8 members found this post helpful.

  13. #13
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Laurierace View Post
    Pin firing is stupid and meaningless, period. It means nothing in terms of a horse's future soundness or limitations. Even if you ruptured the flexor tendon the fetlock wouldn't touch the ground since it is supported by the suspensory ligaments not the tendon so I don't know what to tell you there. Generally speaking a horse that has bowed is more likely to rebow than one that has never bowed. Its a fine line of management with a big dose of luck thrown in there.
    No argument w/ that. Like I said, I've never chosen to fire a horse- it kind of struck me like the same kind of medicine as using leeches! I already have a well-formed opinion on bows. My curiosity is this; this local, apparently well-respected(?) trainer stated pin-fired horses WERE NOT safe to jump/event. I've always found pinfiring, if done for bucked shins as is usually the practice, didn't make a horse unfit for a career in eventing/jumping. I appreciate your take on the situation as I agree w/you, it should not be regarded as a career-limiting issue. I really hate to see this person advising folks off horses for reasons that don't make a lick of common sense, especially since some of these horses really need jobs/homes.
    " It's about the horse, and that's it."
    George Morris


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  14. #14
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    Default

    Some trainers used to pin fire everything. I don't see it nearly as much as I did 15 years ago and I'm surprised it's still happening.



  15. #15
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    Default

    pin firing is illigal in the UK now. Some trainers do bring their horses to ireland where it is still practiced. I am seeing it less and less, thank goodness, as it is a barbaric thing to do and a very ugly thing to see being done.


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  16. #16
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    Default

    Some race trainers also pin fire the cannons and splints to (supposedly) help prevent bucked shins or popped splints. They do both fronts before the horse is ever sent into training. I don't agree with it, but pin firing does not necessarily mean there was an injury.

    Additionally, I don't think pin firing on some old splints means the horse can't gallop or jump. Many horses have popped a splint and it doesn't affect their athletic career.



  17. #17
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    Well, either the trainer is an idiot, or they are in an area where there is a track that has vets/trainers that pinfire and they want to reduce the chances of their clients getting ideas about finding/buying inexpensive horses instead of paying them a hefty commission to find more expensive ones.

    Oh I'm such a cynic....

    Jennifer


    4 members found this post helpful.

  18. #18
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    I don't have any experience with bows other then riding a few with them. I have heard that the bow comes back stronger if it was healed right then the leg before. I have also heard that eventing does not put as much strain on a horse as racing does. The adoption agency with a different opinion had me confused.



  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by enjoytheride View Post
    I don't have any experience with bows other then riding a few with them. I have heard that the bow comes back stronger if it was healed right then the leg before. I have also heard that eventing does not put as much strain on a horse as racing does. The adoption agency with a different opinion had me confused.
    Tendon lesions heal by filling in with scar tissue. Scar tissue has no "give" meaning it can not stretch. The tendon got a lesion in the first place because it could not stretch enough to compensate for whatever it was doing at the particular time the injury occured. So after it is healed it will be even less likely to be able to compensate because it now stretches less than it could in the first place. In other words horses that have bowed are much more likely to rebow.
    Fractures on the other hand do come back stronger than they were before the injury because the body lays down extra calcium. They almost never repeat the same fracture in the same leg.


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  20. #20
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    Thanks for the info!
    Last edited by enjoytheride; Mar. 23, 2010 at 07:23 AM.



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