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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Nov. 7, 2007
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    SE PA
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    907

    Default Really? Really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    How many stories of rescues abusing horses have you read in COTH lately?
    Do you now assume all rescues of course must be abusing horses?

    That is without anyone having an agenda against rescues.

    Imagine if people would be running around trying to video rescues in operation and all they do, editing the videos in the worst light they can manage to, to really, really make those rescues look terrible, if they were or not making mistakes or really abusive?

    Yes, and imagine if Upton Sinclair listened to you and thought "Well, it's just a few"

    There is abuse. It's widespread. Read the testimony.
    And you know what, one cow, one pig, one lamb. Too many.
    Because it is the culture. Speaking from actual experience, not the PETA handbook, k?
    My big man - April 27, 1986 - September 04, 2008-
    You're with me every moment, my big red horse.

    Be kinder than necessary, for everyone is fighting a battle of some kind.



  2. #22
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    Jun. 30, 2006
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    SF Bay Area, California
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    5,016

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandy76 View Post
    There is abuse. It's widespread. Read the testimony.
    And you know what, one cow, one pig, one lamb. Too many.
    Because it is the culture. Speaking from actual experience, not the PETA handbook, k?
    Well said, Brandy76!
    Proud owner of a Slaughter-Bound TB from a feedlot, and her surprise baby...!
    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e350/Jen4USC/fave.jpg
    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...SC/running.jpg



  3. #23
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    Jan. 4, 2007
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    TX
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    45,140

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandy76 View Post
    Yes, and imagine if Upton Sinclair listened to you and thought "Well, it's just a few"

    There is abuse. It's widespread. Read the testimony.
    And you know what, one cow, one pig, one lamb. Too many.
    Because it is the culture. Speaking from actual experience, not the PETA handbook, k?
    I don't know about other species, but with cattle, no, abuse is not common or accepted.

    Does it happen?
    We have already established that abuse happens in anything humans do, we know it happens in slaughter also.

    Common? Accepted? NO.

    First, there are many employees in a slaughter plant and only a few directly involved with live animals.

    They are monitored now for many years in the bigger plants, the smaller ones generally have self monitoring.

    We can only do so much, just as hospitals, nursing homes, schools, any place someone is in charge of others, most are doing an excellent job, some are abusers and will abuse their charges until found out and punished, just as those cases show.



  4. #24
    Join Date
    Dec. 31, 2000
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    El Paso, TX
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    14,005

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Yes, he did and you know what, that plant was one that had citations and was closed before.

    The system was working, just not good enough in that situation.

    Just like when we hear of abuse any other place, the system at times doesn't work well, until the break is found and fixed.
    Bluey, you need to read all of the testimony from the individuals on that link. Even the Ag people/USDA people agree that the HSA is not being focused on during slaughter, and that there is a huge problem with Humane slaughter enforcement.



  5. #25
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    Jan. 4, 2007
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    TX
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jetsmom View Post
    Bluey, you need to read all of the testimony from the individuals on that link. Even the Ag people/USDA people agree that the HSA is not being focused on during slaughter, and that there is a huge problem with Humane slaughter enforcement.
    I agree that we can make any system better and everyone has been working at this for many years.
    The cattle industry started these programs in 1986 with the QBA continuing education certifications, that include hauling and all other kinds of cattle handling.

    That the industry has been progressive, has and is continuously doing something to better what it does, that doesn't mean "there is a huge problem".



  6. #26
    Join Date
    Sep. 24, 2008
    Posts
    1,701

    Default

    First off..
    Killing animals on an assembly line is a big industrial trade secret? Really?
    Yes, it is. If any company develops a machine/technique that gives them an edge over the competition, they are not going to want to show that off. As the wife of an engineer who holds a Patent, there was a lot of secrecy involved before the equipment was actually shown to anyone in the industry.

    Second, I am Canadian and my husband designs, engineers and builds...wait for it... Slaughter houses. Poultry and beef operations so far. Tempel Grandin is a frequent guest of my SO's when he is building.

    I've likely been in more slaughter houses than 100 of you put together and I am here to tell you, as I've said before on CotH that the plants I've seen in the US are awful, as a rule. I try to avoid US meat, when possible. The pay sucked, they had a huge turnover and there was no investment from the employees. Of course everyone is on best behaviour when we're there. But the yields tell different stories, and anyone who sees those numbers can tell if there is inhumane things happening. Hurt animals are low yield/wasted product. Nobody wants that. Chickens dead from overheating on the trucks? Low yield. Someone is losing money. It should be in the best interests of the company to stay on top of humane practices.

    Not that Canada doesn't have its problems, but our AgCanada vets are on the line during processing or the line stops. Period. Employees can turn each other in anon, for being inhumane or unsafe. A chicken that looks like it was handled roughly before death can be cause to stop the line. Nobody wants that. The places are spotless. They pay well and are usually unionised. (And people wonder why we pay more for our meat.) Being inhumane to an animal is cause for immediate suspension without pay, and review for termination. No if, ands or buts.
    ..
    Yes, slaughter is not something that we want to talk about, but there it is. And yes, people make mistakes, sometimes animals suffer unecessarily and that's terrible.

    The rules need to be enforced, and the people who are responsible for enforcing those rules need to feel more heat from their bosses than they do from the plants, in order to clean it up.

    NJR



  7. #27
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    Jan. 4, 2007
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    TX
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    Default

    Yes, there is much to be done, the work will never end, but that doesn't mean we have not come a long way.
    All are furiously trying to do the best they can.

    No need to bash what we do in the USA, it really doesn't make what you do in Canada look better, because I am sure we could find plenty of fault also.
    We already know that everything in Canada is better, including the moose.
    No one is perfect and few that much more perfect than others.

    Here is some of what is going on, a report from one more summit, where the ideas and newer practices come from and yes, they are implemented:

    http://www.agweb.com/BeefToday/Article.aspx?id=156341

    I still don't know what all this has to do with horses, but be my guest.



  8. #28
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    Dec. 31, 2000
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    El Paso, TX
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    Default

    I think the point is, is that if we can't/won't handle our food animals humanely/safely in SH built for them, then how can you expect the SH to handle our ( "our" being Commercial US)non-food animals humanely/safely in SH not built for them?



  9. #29
    Join Date
    Aug. 27, 2007
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    632

    Default

    My point is being proven....
    This inspector is saying, "No, this was wrong, we need to make changes." and you're discrediting his information (testimony) because the link came thru an activist-type site. People need to point out the flaws in the system without being labeled nutty animal rights activists! For what its worth, my family is a farm family - beef, dairy, pigs - so I'm not exactly a bleeding heart activist, but I see there is a problem with the commercial slaughter industry. They are following suit with other industries and hiring less skilled worker with no or little training - it doesn't take a genius to figure out the quality of work is going to suffer, and by default, the treatment of these still-living animals. We humans live well by the nutrients supplied from these animals, I feel it is our duty to ensure they are treated respectfully up to the moment they become our food.

    Edited to add, excellent point, jetsmom. The facilities are simply not made to process horses and are never going to do a good job processing horses.
    Last edited by WendellsGirl; Mar. 8, 2010 at 06:18 PM. Reason: Credit jetsmom



  10. #30
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    Jan. 4, 2007
    Location
    TX
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by WendellsGirl View Post
    My point is being proven....
    This inspector is saying, "No, this was wrong, we need to make changes." and you're discrediting his information (testimony) because the link came thru an activist-type site. People need to point out the flaws in the system without being labeled nutty animal rights activists! For what its worth, my family is a farm family - beef, dairy, pigs - so I'm not exactly a bleeding heart activist, but I see there is a problem with the commercial slaughter industry. They are following suit with other industries and hiring less skilled worker with no or little training - it doesn't take a genius to figure out the quality of work is going to suffer, and by default, the treatment of these still-living animals. We humans live well by the nutrients supplied from these animals, I feel it is our duty to ensure they are treated respectfully up to the moment they become our food.

    Edited to add, excellent point, jetsmom. The facilities are simply not made to process horses and are never going to do a good job processing horses.
    I was talking about where the news story came from, not balanced at all, from an animal rights organization.

    The deposition was part of the process of tweaking the existing system, so what happened in Vermont didn't happen again.

    The story, coming from where it came, didn't explain that, was just saying "look how terrible cattle people are".

    Low hanging fruit, use the abuse and brand all users with it.
    That is what the animal rights groups do and what I was objecting to.



  11. #31
    Join Date
    Feb. 8, 2006
    Posts
    120

    Default

    Closing this because it's not horse-related.



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