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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan. 25, 2010
    Posts
    106

    Default Amateur Status ... I know...

    I have searched this numerous times and I know it is always coming up. COTH even has an article on it. But I had a question that I need clarified as I could not seem to clarify it myself by the USEF rulebook. If there is another thread that has the answer, please direct me to it. I also know that you can call USEF but this is a hypothetical situation.
    I am not 18 yet. I do not ride for any renumeration.

    Hypothetical Situation:
    19 year old
    Grooms, Mucks Stalls, General Care of Horses
    (General Working Student Position)
    Receives: place to live, board on horse, meals, and gas.

    The person gets to ride horses as an extra. Sometimes receives lessons on them. Riding is not in job description. Does not ride at shows, except own horse or catch rides. Entry fees are paid by owner of horse.

    Is this person still an amateur?



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb. 22, 2000
    Location
    Keswick, VA
    Posts
    7,871

    Default

    No, because she receives horse board, which is specifically listed as remuneration, and rides horses she does not own at the same barn.



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan. 25, 2010
    Posts
    106

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CBoylen View Post
    rides horses she does not own at the same barn.
    (I am not arguing just clarifying)

    Does that make any ride on another horse at the same barn from an amateur take away from the status? That doesn't make any sense, then AA vs. AO classes wouldn't exist.

    Or are you saying because she receives the renumeration of the board AND she rides the horse therefore she is no longer considered Amateur?

    So, if she didn't receive the board but still hacked horses on occasion and catch rode it would be within the rules?



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb. 22, 2000
    Location
    Keswick, VA
    Posts
    7,871

    Default

    Or are you saying because she receives the renumeration of the board AND she rides the horse therefore she is no longer considered Amateur?
    Yes, that is what I'm saying.
    If she didn't receive the board it would be much less clear cut under the rules, but someone could conceivably argue the housing and meals as remuneration under "partial support".



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb. 1, 2001
    Location
    Finally...back in civilization, more or less
    Posts
    11,708

    Default

    Right - you can't receive renumeration for employment in any other capacity (groom, secretary etc) AND ride a horse you don't own at that barn and remain an amateur.

    You could ride all the non-owned horses you want at any other barn, without harming your status.

    The point of this aspect of the rule was to prevent people from *saying* they were employed in a non-riding capacity (groom, secretary, etc) when in fact they were actually being paid to ride (while showing as amateurs.)
    **********
    We move pretty fast for some rabid garden snails.
    -PaulaEdwina



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov. 8, 2006
    Posts
    2,697

    Default

    Colleen you seem to be having difficulty interpretting the rules and posts. I think you really want to be an ammy in your current situation The above is correct that if your board is paid for, in partial or full, and you ride horses for that barn then your no longer an ammy for the show season that you turn 18 (not to be confused with 19). When I turned 18 as a working student I had to choose to pay for my own expenses, but be given lesson or go pro and have board and some lesson covered. I went pro.

    Lucassb- we seemed to have posted at the same time.



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan. 25, 2010
    Posts
    106

    Default

    Thank You! Much clearer now.

    There was an argument at a barn about this recently and that is what I thought, but was told I was wrong by a professional and wanted clarification.

    And flyracing: I was CLARIFYING a point. I wanted to be sure I had the BEST and MOST CLEAR information to present to someone.



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov. 8, 2006
    Posts
    2,697

    Default

    Sorry, It is always good to clarify.



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec. 28, 2001
    Location
    over yonder
    Posts
    3,075

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by colleen9 View Post
    Thank You! Much clearer now.

    There was an argument at a barn about this recently and that is what I thought, but was told I was wrong by a professional and wanted clarification.

    And flyracing: I was CLARIFYING a point. I wanted to be sure I had the BEST and MOST CLEAR information to present to someone.
    Good luck with that.

    In my experience, when people are arguing about the amateur rules it is generally not because they don't understand them. It is because they don't like them and have no intention of following them
    Auventera Two:Some women would eat their own offspring if they had some dipping sauce.



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun. 3, 2007
    Location
    Jersey
    Posts
    126

    Default

    RockinHorse - I couldn't agree with you more.

    -Chris



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Nov. 1, 1999
    Location
    Someplace Wet
    Posts
    8,832

    Default

    the reason the ammy rules are so convoluted etc is that there were always pros who "figured out" the way around them

    the riding nanny /bookkeeper/ cook was the big ploy

    this told to me by former Pres of the AHSA and VBNT

    everyone did it.

    many continue to do so and will try to convince others they are right. I know well established pro who have never read the rules for their discipline

    OP you are a pro by the rules



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb. 17, 2010
    Location
    Purcellville, VA
    Posts
    1,224

    Default Since I don't have the USEF rulebook right in front of me......

    Does anyone know what the time frame is to wait without having practiced as a professional to get your ammy status reinstated?

    I have been a "Professional" for the past 9 years and have retired to a desk job and am DYING to have my Amateur status back!!

    Sorry for the mini-hijack...I just didn't see the need to post a new thread since my question pertained to this issue!



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Mar. 19, 2003
    Posts
    378

    Default

    I believe it is one year.
    M
    Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from behind, or a fool from any direction



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Nov. 23, 1999
    Location
    South Coast Plaza
    Posts
    20,504

    Default

    I never understand how an internet BB takes place of a national federation.
    EDDIE WOULD GO



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jan. 25, 2010
    Posts
    106

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hoopoe View Post

    OP you are a pro by the rules
    That's not me. It was a hypothetical situation that I was discussing with someone. I am well within the rules.



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Feb. 1, 2001
    Location
    Finally...back in civilization, more or less
    Posts
    11,708

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sar2008 View Post
    Does anyone know what the time frame is to wait without having practiced as a professional to get your ammy status reinstated?

    I have been a "Professional" for the past 9 years and have retired to a desk job and am DYING to have my Amateur status back!!

    Sorry for the mini-hijack...I just didn't see the need to post a new thread since my question pertained to this issue!
    The USEF site has a guide posted on how to get reinstated as an amateur. You do have to allow a year to pass from your last professional activity before you can apply:

    http://www.usef.org/documents/rules/...nstatement.pdf
    **********
    We move pretty fast for some rabid garden snails.
    -PaulaEdwina



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jan. 3, 2003
    Location
    St. Louis, MO USA
    Posts
    1,004

    Default

    Since this has gone off on the bookkeeper/nanny/cook direction.

    Let's just say that Suzie Adult does the books for the barn part time - works another job full time. Suzie is paid to do the books only and that is all she does for the barn. Suzie leases a horse from the barn that she works at and pays all of it's expenses. Is Suzie a pro?
    My new mantra - \"Life is too short not to eat ice cream.\"
    ReRiders Clique



  18. #18
    Join Date
    Sep. 19, 2002
    Location
    FL transplant from IL
    Posts
    7,177

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Coreene View Post
    I never understand how an internet BB takes place of a national federation.
    Maybe cause when you call the national federation, all they keep saying is "read page ____ about it". They don't answer any questions or interpret the rules. So then you have to attend a show, see if somebody protests you & then see how the national federation rules at your hearing (what I was told to do). Then I guess you'll know if it was against the rules or not.

    I am not saying COTH is the end all be all of knowledge, but some posters have helped me interpret the rules so I understand them.
    "I'm not crazy...my mother had me tested"



  19. #19
    Join Date
    Mar. 5, 2007
    Posts
    1,704

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hasahorse View Post
    Since this has gone off on the bookkeeper/nanny/cook direction.

    Let's just say that Suzie Adult does the books for the barn part time - works another job full time. Suzie is paid to do the books only and that is all she does for the barn. Suzie leases a horse from the barn that she works at and pays all of it's expenses. Is Suzie a pro?
    See the posts above.
    Is she riding any horses at the barn other than the one she leases?



  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jun. 20, 2008
    Posts
    5,787

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hasahorse View Post
    Since this has gone off on the bookkeeper/nanny/cook direction.

    Let's just say that Suzie Adult does the books for the barn part time - works another job full time. Suzie is paid to do the books only and that is all she does for the barn. Suzie leases a horse from the barn that she works at and pays all of it's expenses. Is Suzie a pro?

    In this situation Susie could still be considered an amateur - although there is a grey area because the horse she is leasing could generate income for her employer.. and that's where it gets confusing. If Susie was leasing a horse from another boarder at the barn - less confusing/amateur. Unfortunately there are plenty of people who are indeed amateurs but do not meet the ammy criteria based on the rules - because of all those bad seeds who insisted on skirting the rules - making it seem ridiculous for the majority of rule-abidding competitors



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