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  1. #1
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    Default Equine Canada Weighs in on FEI Rollkur Announcement

    I have no idea how many of the federations have responded to the FEI announcement, but the Equine Canada CEO Akaash Maharaj has weighed in.
    http://www.barnmice.com/group/horsej...ource=activity



  2. #2
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    And if you think Mr. Maharaj is anything other than a politician with his eye on which side to back, I have a bridge for sale.

    NJR



  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nojacketrequired View Post
    And if you think Mr. Maharaj is anything other than a politician with his eye on which side to back, I have a bridge for sale.

    NJR
    Really? I don't know his background at all. I thought his comments seemed quite rational in terms of wanting a more precise definition of Rollkur for the stewards to go by.



  4. #4
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    He noted that: “Until this afternoon Rollkur was not banned as a practice, but now the stewards will be required to act and I believe it will be in the best interest of the FEI and the sport itself to come out with a precise definition of Rollkur.”
    Show officials will need a definition of RK/hyperflexion from FEI. And this is a huge step!

    I do think that from now on, that rule will ban warm ups like "Blue Tongue" and "RK Pony" = now even bystanders can go to TD and report or question the "aggressive, unacceptable riding RK/hyperflexion" There will be many, many eyes that will be watching for aggressive riding such as RK/hyperflexion. More dressage enthusiasts are aware now that RK/hyperflexion is banned. RK/hyperflexion riders will have to think twice if they want to push RK/hyperflexion~LDR line in the warm ups. There is a heightened awareness and we can expect many more YouTube videos of public warm ups.

    Aggressively ridden RK/Hyperflexion horses will be watched now even more closely than ever! I think that will prevent some "aggressive RK/Hyperflexion riding" and if that will ease horse's show experience, that's a step in the correct direction.



  5. #5
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    it is not banned.



  6. #6
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    More dressage enthusiasts are aware now that RK/hyperflexion is banned
    Then they are misinformed.



  7. #7
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    Ditto slc and egontoast. Key word there is "aggressive", yet to be defined.



  8. #8
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    It's a word play game. Even H&H reported it this morning with the headline "FEI bans Rollkur".... of course the article went on to explain that RK is now redefined, but I wonder how many casual readers will get that far before shouting from the rooftops that it's now illegal to flex a horse to extreme positions - which is blatantly not true. As SLC and Egon said, the only thing "banned" is aggressive riding, which was already the case.

    However, the one change to take note of is the redefinition of terms: according to the FEI, the words Hyperflexion and RK = aggressive riding, and chin-on-chest alone does NOT = RK. It is quite acceptable to place horse in pretzel posture if horse is willing to go there through normal application of aids. Sooo, those people and institutions strongly against Rollkur in the past must now redefine themselves, if they are against the training technique as a whole!

    As if we needed more convolution of this issue. Utterly ridiculous on all sides.



  9. #9
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    I fear the FEI statement will in the end not make one bit of difference. First of all, who is going to define "aggressive riding"? How do you know it when you see it? Does the horse have to have its chin on its chest for 5 seconds, 30 seconds, 5 minutes, 20 minutes? Or its nose pulled around to the rider's boot for - again, how long? Does its tongue have to be out and flopping for a predetermined length of time? Does the tongue have to turn blue for the riding to be deemed "aggressive"?

    Really - are there any stewards out there with the cajones to actually card Anky or any of the top riders? They know full well that they would probably never get hired again by a major show because the organizers won't want to risk p****** off the top riders. Not only that, but FEI would probably also throw them under the bus if push comes to shove. I would in fact, pay good money to watch the discussion on the topic between said steward and Sjef Janssen.
    Last edited by DownYonder; Feb. 10, 2010 at 09:24 AM.



  10. #10
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    back to the Equine Canada thing. The CEO of EC is not a dressage rider and I will lay money he has never ridden a low deep and round or rollkur in his life.. But he has been for many years, a policy making hired lackey for a major political party and most of his statements come from that background. The guy seems to love to make policy and extract more fees from the people he is supposed to be serving. Since he was hired there have been a vaster volume of words coming from that office than ever before. However, we know that the volume of words printed out does not necessarily reflect any real value. His statement about RK is simply the best optics he could come up with in the situation and probably does not reflect any personal opinion or knowledge on the subject.

    the FEI roundtable group has redefined hyperflexion/Rollkur as “flexion of the horse’s neck achieved
    through aggressive force, which is therefore unacceptable.”


    Mr. Maharaj informed me that he has already written to the FEI requesting clarification and written guidelines, as there is currently no precise definition of what Rollkur is.
    OK, so the FEI roundtable definition of RK is not good enough for him? He asks them to be more precise? I think he has neither read nor understood the definition provided.

    The issue is actually to define what constitutes aggressive force. I think we can all say that in most instances, aggressive force ( seems pretty obvious to me what that is) is rarely necessary or helpful in horse training. But there are obviously instances where aggressive force is required- like where a young horse stands straight on his hinds , and threatens to bolt in a large class. I think aggressive force in throwing my body on the forehand to bring the horse down to earth might be important for safety issues, and less aggressive riding will put others at risk. Proponents of the use of hyperflexion for behavioral control might make the same case. I wonder how they will tease that one out.
    "The Threat of Internet Ignorance: ... we are witnessing the rise of an age of equestrian disinformation, one where a trusting public can graze on nonsense packaged to look like fact."-LRG-AF



  11. #11
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    Thank you, Cat on Lap, for putting that more succinctly than I could.

    As to "aggressive force" you'll never see it. The horses who get to the top through those tactics know better by then to fight the technique. The aggressive force (If there was any), would have come WAY before they ever got to an FEI warm up and by that time the horses would be saying "Yes, Ma'am!" at the slightest indication from the rider.

    NJR



  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nojacketrequired View Post
    As to "aggressive force" you'll never see it. The horses who get to the top through those tactics know better by then to fight the technique. The aggressive force (If there was any), would have come WAY before they ever got to an FEI warm up and by that time the horses would be saying "Yes, Ma'am!" at the slightest indication from the rider.
    Right!

    So would it be true to say that when a horse is ridden in LDR the chin would be nowhere near to the chest, whereas in extreme RK the chin can get close enough to the chest that contact sometimes occurs (as can be seen in the Scandic BT video)? If that is the case, the chin touching the chest would be prima facie evidence for extreme RK having occurred, surely (with the obvious exception of the horse trying to reach an itch on its chest by itself). Chin touching chest = yellow card.

    If actual touching is too stringent, then coming within 2 inches (say) would be a workable alternative.

    Such a rule would not penalize correct LDR, but would discourage the more extreme and objectionable forms of RK because a rider would not want to risk the chin getting so close to the chest. It has the advantage of using a simple, objectively verifiable criterion, rather the proposed one - "aggressive force" which involves a subjective judgement and is well-nigh impossible to prove.

    I wonder, has this ever been suggest - and if it has, what was the reason for rejecting it?



  13. #13
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    Dressage Art, I have to commend you for the passion with which you approach this topic, it's obviously something you care deeply about, and something you're prepared to put some effort into changing.

    I do think, however, that you'll have more success if you can somehow cross that hinky little portal which is seperating your reality (where Rolkur is banned) from ours (where it isn't).



  14. #14
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    So would it be true to say that when a horse is ridden in LDR the chin would be nowhere near to the chest, whereas in extreme RK the chin can get close enough to the chest that contact sometimes occurs (as can be seen in the Scandic BT video)? If that is the case, the chin touching the chest would be prima facie evidence for extreme RK having occurred, surely (with the obvious exception of the horse trying to reach an itch on its chest by itself). Chin touching chest = yellow card.
    You could cetainly say that all you like, but the FEI isn't saying any such thing. All I am saying is that you won't see "aggressive" riding in the warm-up because the horses that are used to this technique already know better than to fight it.

    NJR



  15. #15
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    We can use different words than banned if you don't like banned, the result is the same:
    any head and neck position achieved through aggressive force is not acceptable. The group redefined hyperflexion/Rollkur as flexion of the horse’s neck achieved through aggressive force, which is therefore unacceptable.
    Hyperflexion/Rollkur is considered an aggressive force and it is unacceptable at the FEI shows. Any aggressive riding will be sanctioned. Hyperflexion/Rollkur is an aggressive force so it will be sanctioned b/c it's unacceptable.

    Where do you see that Hyperflexion/Rollkur is allowed at FEI shows?



  16. #16
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    DA, you're putting the cart before the horse. They haven't said that hyperflexion IS, by definition, achieved through excessive force, they've said that, IF you achieve that position through excessive force, then it is Rolkur.

    Do you see the difference?



  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaeleer View Post
    DA, you're putting the cart before the horse. They haven't said that hyperflexion IS, by definition, achieved through excessive force, they've said that, IF you achieve that position through excessive force, then it is Rolkur.

    Do you see the difference?
    You are correct Kaeleer and there are going to be some seriously disappointed people when they realize this. Wait until the next FEI show in Europe and the warm up pics and videos come out they will realize what you are saying is correct. I am happy it will hopefully keep this method out of less educated hands but on the international stage you will still see, PK, Anky, edward, hans etc use it.
    “Maybe some women aren't meant to be tamed. Maybe they just need to run free til they find someone just as wild to run with them.”



  18. #18
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    DA, think of it this way:

    The exact same posture is allowed.

    If done with aggressive force, it is called RK and BAD

    If its done without force, its called LDR and its GOOD

    You will remember that for the last 9 years we have been told again, and again by the pro-RK people that Anky is 125 wet and she does not use force.

    You will remember that the argument of the anti-RK people as never been that this technique was brutal but that the posture that this technique creates is detrimental to the welfare of the horse.

    So. In fact, yes, the FEI has legitimized RK, call it RK light if you want and by banning aggressive riding, made a mockery of the meeting, since aggressive riding is already covered in the rule book.



  19. #19
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    Check it out the press release now says.

    Following constructive debate at the FEI round-table conference at the IOC Headquarters in Lausanne today (9 February), the consensus of the group was that any head and neck position of the horse achieved through aggressive force is not acceptable. The group redefined hyperflexion/Rollkur as flexion of the horse’s neck achieved through aggressive force, which is therefore unacceptable. The technique known as Long, Deep and Round (LDR), which achieves flexion without undue force, is acceptable.

    Low has been changed to Long.. Is this a typo or does it mean that the nose on the chest can never been seen as Long, Deep, and Round? Although how can a horse be Long, Deep and Round at the same time or is what Haddad is showing in her video blog Long, Deep and Round.

    http://www.fei.org/Media/News_Centre...le-9Feb10.aspx
    “Maybe some women aren't meant to be tamed. Maybe they just need to run free til they find someone just as wild to run with them.”



  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by DownYonder View Post
    Does the horse have to have its chin on its chest for 5 seconds, 30 seconds, 5 minutes, 20 minutes?
    And does the steward have to watch the horse during the entire warmup to monitor how long the horse is in that position? What if the rider places the horse in RK, releases, back to RK, releases, etc.? How long does the steward have to watch? Will they have a stopwatch? The steward can't keep an eye on all the horses all the time.

    All the anti-RK people can crow off the mountain top if they want. I can't see where this changes anything...it's as clear as mud.



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