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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul. 12, 2002
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    Default

    **EDIT!**
    Per an excellent suggestion by Impromtu - I am putting the CURRENT HORSE FOR EVALUATION in the topic. Please notice that we are doing ONE at a time, and then moving onto a new one. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...icon_smile.gif
    *******
    I'm at it again! Remember the Post Your Feet PIctures thread? Well - lately I've been browsing CANTER sites and stuff, looking for a possible new horse and its very hard to see conformation on some of these scrawny TB's.

    But it's there - it's all about how the bones go together, where stuff attaches, and how it relates to the whole body.

    So can we use this thread to educate ourselves on what to look for in a well-built sport horse?

    I want to know what a weak hind-end really looks like and why. Things like that - things that get mentioned all around the boards on those "critque this horse" threads, but aren't strictly for educational value.

    I would love to put up a picture of some well-liked stallion/horse in order to critique a "nice" animal, but I don't want to offend anyone - and since I don't happen to own a famous stallion sporthorse, I will use Java. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...on_biggrin.gif

    This picture was taken this summer in the backyard. He was stopped from a big trot to stare at something interesting. I think he is leaning foward more than normal in anticipation - but otherwise, this is basically him.

    His head appears abnormally large also - which isn't right. I lightened it up to see his body as well as possible - so it be washed out.

    Neck/ShoulderI feel like his neck is too short, but ties on "ok". Could be higher.

    His shoulder is perhaps a bit straight(?) but I can tell you his shoulder blade is excessively long - per the saddle fitter. Should an ideal shoulder slope more?

    Front LimbsHard to see his pasterns (whose idea was it to post this picture?! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c.../icon_wink.gif ) but I can tell you they are prett good - not too short/long or steep/vertical.

    His knees/legs are straight, he has good bone and not too long of a canon bone. Anyone have further input on a quality front end? More things to look for?

    Rear End
    I wish he had his leg under him in a normal spot. Cause this is where I'm weak. What is a strong butt/hind limb? He is big-butted, but is it powerful? I know about the triangle - but I want more clarification.

    I don't think he is sickle hocked and he isn't cow hocked, actually. But I always feel like his gaskin is underdeveloped for his size. It might not be obvious in the picture and I might be totally paranoid.

    Overall
    He isn't obviously built "downhill", but he is just enough that he travels primarly on his forehand and struggles to use his hind end. I think he is very attractive at first glance, BUT knowing that his slight downhill tendancy affects his athleticism so dramatically is eye opening when I see other horses.

    I am not seekin critism about Java in particular - I am simply using this picture to start off our education! So don't go making this personal for me and him - although feel free to nitpick him in a detached manner for education purposes! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...icon_smile.gif

    (I am feeling a tad bid emotional over him do to possibility finding him a new home as a flat horse. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...s/icon_eek.gif So comments like "why would you consider buying a horse like him in the first place?" wouldn't go over well right now)

    So get to it! Let's see how long it takes to get to 10,000 views! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...on_biggrin.gif Draw on the pictures with lines - make this valuable like the feet thread!

    Oh and post some obvious flaws if you wouldn't mind! Show some good examples of bench knees, sickle hocks, roach backs, low necks, long backs, etc.

    Plus, of course, we MOST need to see GOOD examples to educate our eye for a good horse.

    martha

    Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

    My Album - in full swing - some Area IV H.T. pics, and plenty of my friend Java.
    http://community.webshots.com/user/mcmiv

    [This message was edited by mcmIV on Aug. 05, 2003 at 10:13 PM.]

    [This message was edited by mcmIV on Aug. 07, 2003 at 10:52 PM.]

    [This message was edited by mcmIV on Aug. 09, 2003 at 11:19 PM.]

    [This message was edited by mcmIV on Aug. 12, 2003 at 11:23 AM.]

    [This message was edited by mcmIV on Aug. 14, 2003 at 11:01 PM.]
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    Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish & the NervousNellieWorryWart* cliques!



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul. 12, 2002
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    1,987

    Default

    **EDIT!**
    Per an excellent suggestion by Impromtu - I am putting the CURRENT HORSE FOR EVALUATION in the topic. Please notice that we are doing ONE at a time, and then moving onto a new one. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...icon_smile.gif
    *******
    I'm at it again! Remember the Post Your Feet PIctures thread? Well - lately I've been browsing CANTER sites and stuff, looking for a possible new horse and its very hard to see conformation on some of these scrawny TB's.

    But it's there - it's all about how the bones go together, where stuff attaches, and how it relates to the whole body.

    So can we use this thread to educate ourselves on what to look for in a well-built sport horse?

    I want to know what a weak hind-end really looks like and why. Things like that - things that get mentioned all around the boards on those "critque this horse" threads, but aren't strictly for educational value.

    I would love to put up a picture of some well-liked stallion/horse in order to critique a "nice" animal, but I don't want to offend anyone - and since I don't happen to own a famous stallion sporthorse, I will use Java. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...on_biggrin.gif

    This picture was taken this summer in the backyard. He was stopped from a big trot to stare at something interesting. I think he is leaning foward more than normal in anticipation - but otherwise, this is basically him.

    His head appears abnormally large also - which isn't right. I lightened it up to see his body as well as possible - so it be washed out.

    Neck/ShoulderI feel like his neck is too short, but ties on "ok". Could be higher.

    His shoulder is perhaps a bit straight(?) but I can tell you his shoulder blade is excessively long - per the saddle fitter. Should an ideal shoulder slope more?

    Front LimbsHard to see his pasterns (whose idea was it to post this picture?! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c.../icon_wink.gif ) but I can tell you they are prett good - not too short/long or steep/vertical.

    His knees/legs are straight, he has good bone and not too long of a canon bone. Anyone have further input on a quality front end? More things to look for?

    Rear End
    I wish he had his leg under him in a normal spot. Cause this is where I'm weak. What is a strong butt/hind limb? He is big-butted, but is it powerful? I know about the triangle - but I want more clarification.

    I don't think he is sickle hocked and he isn't cow hocked, actually. But I always feel like his gaskin is underdeveloped for his size. It might not be obvious in the picture and I might be totally paranoid.

    Overall
    He isn't obviously built "downhill", but he is just enough that he travels primarly on his forehand and struggles to use his hind end. I think he is very attractive at first glance, BUT knowing that his slight downhill tendancy affects his athleticism so dramatically is eye opening when I see other horses.

    I am not seekin critism about Java in particular - I am simply using this picture to start off our education! So don't go making this personal for me and him - although feel free to nitpick him in a detached manner for education purposes! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...icon_smile.gif

    (I am feeling a tad bid emotional over him do to possibility finding him a new home as a flat horse. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...s/icon_eek.gif So comments like "why would you consider buying a horse like him in the first place?" wouldn't go over well right now)

    So get to it! Let's see how long it takes to get to 10,000 views! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...on_biggrin.gif Draw on the pictures with lines - make this valuable like the feet thread!

    Oh and post some obvious flaws if you wouldn't mind! Show some good examples of bench knees, sickle hocks, roach backs, low necks, long backs, etc.

    Plus, of course, we MOST need to see GOOD examples to educate our eye for a good horse.

    martha

    Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

    My Album - in full swing - some Area IV H.T. pics, and plenty of my friend Java.
    http://community.webshots.com/user/mcmiv

    [This message was edited by mcmIV on Aug. 05, 2003 at 10:13 PM.]

    [This message was edited by mcmIV on Aug. 07, 2003 at 10:52 PM.]

    [This message was edited by mcmIV on Aug. 09, 2003 at 11:19 PM.]

    [This message was edited by mcmIV on Aug. 12, 2003 at 11:23 AM.]

    [This message was edited by mcmIV on Aug. 14, 2003 at 11:01 PM.]
    Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish & the NervousNellieWorryWart* cliques!



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar. 17, 2003
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    MD
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    Default

    Neat!

    One thing I def. don't have an eye for are straight hind legs. Two people told me my New Guy's hind legs were a little straight, and I still don't see it. I have a conformation book that's nothing but pictures, studied them carefully, and I still can't see it...

    I'm going to hold off posting any pics until he gains 150-200 pounds, he's a real skinny minny.

    Do I dare disturb the universe?
    model citizen, zero discipline



  4. #4
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    Default

    I've been seeing a lot of TB's on CANTER for instance that seem to be weak in the stifle/hind area - but I can't tell if they're weak (which is probably as common as not) or if they're developed strangely and structurally strong.

    I require some discussion on this! Some more pictures, commentary, etc.! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...icon_smile.gif

    martha

    Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

    My Album - in full swing - some Area IV H.T. pics, and plenty of my friend Java.
    http://community.webshots.com/user/mcmiv
    Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish & the NervousNellieWorryWart* cliques!



  5. #5
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    Midwesterner in Yankeeland
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    I don't have a conformation shot of the boy, alas...plenty to pick apart there. But if anyone can explain/illustrate what makes a good shoulder, it would make me very happy indeed.
    http://longestformat.blogspot.com/

    "The present tense of regret is indecision."
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  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep. 21, 2001
    Location
    Parker, Colorado
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    Default

    I am highly ignorant of this conformation stuff, but these pictures might make interesting discussion. This is Gabe, now a 3 yo TB, about 16.2 (today anyway). It might be fun to compare his 2 yo picture to a picture about one year later.

    Gabe age 2 years 4 months

    Gabe at age 3 years one month

    I'd love to hear what you all think! He hasn't done much yet, but I have found that he is not a very big mover. He would much prefer to be short and choppy at the trot, though he will allow me to slow him down and make him springier and get a nice trot out of him. Could this be due to the slight straighness in his shoulder, I guess? He isn't far enough along for me to be making him use his butt yet, so that may be part of it too. His canter and walk are to DIE for though, long and lovely. He is a tad clubby on his right front and left hind, though it doesn't show up well in the pictures.

    He is going through a growth spurt and looks different every day now... I'll have to take more pictures this month and compare!

    where are we going, and why am I in this hand basket?
    where are we going, and why am I in this hand basket?



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr. 11, 2001
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    Tennessee
    Posts
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    Martha, great idea! I've got a picture of Simon from March after 3 months of stall rest and a total of 5+ months from his last horse trails. I'll take one tomorrow of him as he's back to work and legged up. Should be a good comparison of the difference fitness can make in your first impressions of confirmation.

    I'll post the March picture now since I need to learn how! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...on_biggrin.gif
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  8. #8
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    Nov. 6, 2002
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    Central NY
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    Martha....you just make my day http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...on_biggrin.gif
    I'm not as good at conformation as I am at feet, but I would love to participate. I haven't had time to read the thread yet....but can't wait. I'll look around for some good and bad pics.

    P.S. Should we do a conformation clique http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c.../icon_wink.gif

    Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *
    December 13 - National Day of the Horse!
    Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *



  9. #9
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    Apr. 11, 2001
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    Tennessee
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    gee...that wasn't so hard...

    FYI--Simon's an 11 years old, TB, event horse. For the most part I think he gets pretty good marks. He looks a bit down hill here but that might be the footing--I'll use concrete tomorrow.

    I think what I like best overall is that his body fits nicely into a visuallized perfect square with the front legs coming into the body at the mid point of the square. That type a symetry, at least to my eye, makes for a good basis of proportion.

    I wouldn't say he's got a fabulous shoulder--could be just a bit more sloping--but I like the long shoulder, short pt. of s. to elbow, long forearm, short cannon, long pastern.

    He's a good example of a short backed, short coupled horse. With his head turned you don't see that he's a wee short necked as well.

    When riding this horse has a nice sized stride and is very easily adjustable, and easy to package--qualities I think you can atribute to his build. He is also easy to keep in front of your leg which I attribute to an uphill build (which is not obvious in this photo.)



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Oct. 22, 2001
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    5,201

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    This is only my impression based solely on these two photographs, so please take it with a grain of salt. It's hard to fully see a photograph, and in any case, lots of horses that aren't put together properly can turn out wonderfully. These are just the conformation points which jump out at me on these horses: no bashing or unpleasantness intended.

    I am struck by how short coupled Simon is: compare the length and proportion between the withers and the point of his hip with the same on Java. Gabe's picture is alittle hard to tell -- although he looks quite short there, I wonder if he's curving his body a touch so that he faces the canter and might actually be a little bit longer than Simon, though shorter than Java.

    I'd like to see a more set up picture of Java's hind legs -- they are hard to evaluate like that. They look a touch camped out there -- which makes me think immediately of the stifle issues you said you'd had with him, but again, it's just one picture and he could be standing awkwardly. Simon's hind legs are a little easier to evaluate: drop a straight line from his butt right down the back of the hind legs to the ground. Can't see the hind pasterns, but the angles appear to be there. Too dark to tell on Gabe.

    I'd like to see a picture with both Gabe's and Simon's heads not turned towards the camera, but I would guess that Gabe has a lovely, typey, TB neck. Java's shoulder is long and powerful looking, the other two are harder to evaluate.

    This reminds me of the old conformation critique in Practical Horseman. I should look for a photo of the Spotted One to demonstrate all the things a horse should not have conformationally (and to prove that sometimes the key factor is what's between the ears and in the heart).



  11. #11
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    Apr. 11, 2001
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    Tennessee
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tucked_Away:
    But if anyone can explain/illustrate what makes a good shoulder, it would make me very happy indeed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    T.A. I think the two major points to look for in a shoulder is it's angle compared to a 45 degree and its length from wither to the point of the shoulder.

    More sloping i.e. torward the horizontal as opposed to upright or vertical is better. I think the concept is the more sloping the shoulder the easier for the horse to stride out as well as lift for jumping. Horses with straighter shoulder are supposedly more jarring to ride.

    Therory and real life sometimes don't mesh, so take everything with a grain of salt.



  12. #12
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    Jul. 6, 2002
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    S. Yorks, UK
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    I love this thread! Mostly because I know nothing about conformation, and because I get to look at everyones purty horses!

    Things I would change about Nona:
    Her neck. As I am an eventer, I would like to see it come out of her shoulder a little higher, but as she wants to be a hunter, it's not that bad.

    Her feet. She has the most awful feet I have ever seen, the are a little hard to explain, so I will take pictures of them soon.
    I would also like her to be built a little more uphill.

    Nona

    **********************************
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  13. #13
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    OK! I used Simon because he standing a little more square than the others and its a great picture.

    I drew lines - and if I drew them incorrectly tell me! This is based on what I remember from my PC days. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...icon_smile.gif

    I think the square is supposed to contain the horse from the point of shoulder, over the withers/croup down to the feet. In any case, Simon does indeed almost fit precisely in the ideal square.

    He definately seems built downhill, but like you say maybe he is standing funny. If he is truly a little downhill, obviously he is able to compensate with other features to carry himself effectively and off his front end. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...icon_smile.gif

    I drew a triangle on his butt. I thik it's supposed to be equalateral? All Angles the same? Or are all lines supposed to be the same legnth? If I recall, a longer line from stifle to butt gives them more leverage and more push.... or something like that.

    Anyway, my triangle is probably not the same angles, but the BLUE lines are identical legnths, the white indicate where the lines are longer than the stifle/hip. That might be good? Lets discuss that.

    I wrote a quesiton on the picture for clarification of placement.

    I also did get the exact angle of 45dgrs on there for the shoulder and I estimate his real angle is more like 37, if you follow the indent of his shoulderblade. But that isn't always exactly the shoulder itself... but it's a good estimate. I think he has a pretty decent shoulder.

    Simon is a handsome fellow! What does he compete at? Don't you take him prelim+?

    martha

    Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

    My Album - in full swing - some Area IV H.T. pics, and plenty of my friend Java.
    http://community.webshots.com/user/mcmiv
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  14. #14
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    A second question -

    Does the rear canon bone always come straight down perpendicular to the ground from the hock?

    So many horses have an angle to the ground in the rear canon, but I think many horses are a little sickle hocked and we are acoustomed to it.

    I PUT A PIC of java with a square - see how much longer he is than Simon. Java strikes me as "short backed" as an impression, but he isn't - interesting to note.

    I couldn't really do the butt thing, his position is too distorted.

    martha

    Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

    My Album - in full swing - some Area IV H.T. pics, and plenty of my friend Java.
    http://community.webshots.com/user/mcmiv

    [This message was edited by mcmIV on Jul. 30, 2003 at 10:25 PM.]
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  15. #15
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    Okay, I want to play. This is a picture of my TB filly at 2 and a half. She is obviously in the middle of a growth spurt, with bum higher than withers, and you can't see her neck because the way her head is turned- at this point it was a bit short and low set. As she has grown, it has improved dramatically.

    She's starting to even up (I'll try to get some more recent pics in the near future), and at 3 and 4 months is a HUGE mover. Enormous, suspended trot and a 14+ ft canter stride.

    Go ahead, critique away. I know what I think, would love to hear what others think.

    the silly filly

    [This message was edited by Master Tally on Jul. 31, 2003 at 04:14 PM.]



  16. #16
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mcmIV:


    I also did get the exact angle of 45dgrs on there for the shoulder and I estimate his real angle is more like 37, if you follow the indent of his shoulderblade.

    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Martha, could you measure the angle of the pastern to compare it with the shoulder angle? I guess the RF would be the one to do since he's standing straighter on it.
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  17. #17
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    I'll play...I love conformation critique's and getting my horses critiqued! I have a picture of an obvious fault...

    Toe Out

    This is a picture of my 3 year old OTTB. He looks so different now (those are his legs above). I think he has a good build for an eventer. Shorter back, nice round muscular hind end, good shoulder. He is an excellent mover, good hind end engagment and nice shoulder movement. He needs some more muscling on the top of his neck (not to obvious in the picture, but I do know he does!). He's front right hoof does look sort of funny (it isn't clubby) but it looks different in person. Critique away (constructive critiques!)!!

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  18. #18
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    Great thread, Martha! http://chronicleforums.com/images/cu...milies/yes.gif

    Another resource would be those old Practical Horseman's when they did Conformation Clinic right behind Jumping Clinic. When did they stop running that? Circa 1996?

    I'm a horsie packrat, so I still have all my back issues around here somewhere...



  19. #19
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Is n' Stormy:
    I'll play...I love conformation critique's and getting my horses critiqued! I have a picture of an obvious fault...

    http://community.webshots.com/photo/...74093710ImYMQH

    This is a picture of my 3 year old OTTB. He looks so different now (those are his legs above). I think he has a good build for an eventer. Shorter back, nice round muscular hind end, good shoulder. He is an excellent mover, good hind end engagment and nice shoulder movement. He needs some more muscling on the top of his neck (not to obvious in the picture, but I do know he does!). He's front right hoof does look sort of funny (it isn't clubby) but it looks different in person. Critique away (constructive critiques!)!!

    http://community.webshots.com/photo/...></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I like him, I think he could use some more length in his neck, but, other than what you have already said, he looks good. He is going to look great when you get him muscled up. I love Sabino TBs! I own one, have fun scrubbing all of that white for shows! http://chronicleforums.com/images/cu...s/winkgrin.gif

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  20. #20
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    Mster Tally, your link did not work for me... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...icon_frown.gif

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