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View Poll Results: Poll question

Voters
247. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, please ban discussion of ISR Old. NA vs. GOV

    144 58.30%
  • No, please do not ban discussion of ISR Old. NA vs. GOV

    103 41.70%
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  1. #1
    Erin is offline Schoolmaster Premium Member
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    These forums are intended to be a pleasant place for people to visit and discuss issues related to the breeding of sport horses.

    We have never found it necessary to declare any suject to be off-limits, but in light of recent events -- and a growing mountain of mail/PTs complaining about those recent events -- I'd like to propose doing so for the sake of peace in the forum.

    So, this is one of those occassions where we ask for your input. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c.../icon_wink.gif

    Thoughts?

    [Edit... Oakleigh, Fairview Horse Center, alexandra, Celebrity, FionaJ and Fallbrook wish to change their votes from "no" to "yes," so subtract 6 "no" votes and add 6 "yes" votes.)

    [This message was edited by Erin on Oct. 06, 2003 at 11:36 AM.]



  2. #2
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    These forums are intended to be a pleasant place for people to visit and discuss issues related to the breeding of sport horses.

    We have never found it necessary to declare any suject to be off-limits, but in light of recent events -- and a growing mountain of mail/PTs complaining about those recent events -- I'd like to propose doing so for the sake of peace in the forum.

    So, this is one of those occassions where we ask for your input. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c.../icon_wink.gif

    Thoughts?

    [Edit... Oakleigh, Fairview Horse Center, alexandra, Celebrity, FionaJ and Fallbrook wish to change their votes from "no" to "yes," so subtract 6 "no" votes and add 6 "yes" votes.)

    [This message was edited by Erin on Oct. 06, 2003 at 11:36 AM.]



  3. #3
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    The conduct of the Oldenburg registries in this country has a huge impact on our market place and on hundreds of thousand of dollars of breeding animals. As Heike’s thread demonstrated for many pages, it is possible to discuss the facts and the issues without going to chocolate or personal attacks. Neither Oldenburg registry website even mentions the split or any thing about it. Even GOV supporters complain that they were “kept in the dark” about what was going on for ten years. A forum like this is the only place for people to discuss what happened in that past, what is happening in the present and how we can work to improve the registry situation for the future. Other heated topics are allowed to be discussed. Look at C M Franks thread… we should be allowed to discuss what is going on.
    We should continue to be allowed to discus this topic... but the moderators should not interject personal opinions and/or try to control the flow of information.



  4. #4
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    I also agree that while this is a discussion that people sometimes get emotional about, it is very important to discuss it and educate people about the facts.

    If people don't want to hear about it, or read the discussions, they don't need to read the thread. It is as simple as that.

    You can keep both sides happy- allow the discussions, and tell the people that complain about them to stop reading them.

    If an individual is causing problems, give them a five day probation from the forum. Problem solved.

    Just my two cents.

    Spectrum.



  5. #5
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    One of the problems have with this poll, other that the obvious bias presented in the phraseology of the question itself… is that anyone can vote on this issue based upon personalities and cliques.

    The only people who should be voting on this issue are people who are impacted by this issue…people who own and breed Oldenburg horses. I think that people with no material interest in the issue should stay out of it.

    Think about it this way, if a group of us Oldenburg owners and breeders were at a Breed Show, sitting around discussing Sport horse breeding in this country and the important issues that seriously impact American Oldenburg breeders, would we allow someone to come running over from the Hunter Show across the street to say the kinds of things we’ve read here like:

    “Wow! I don't even know anything about Sport Horse Breeding.
    I just heard about Cartier's posting over here and decided to check it out.
    I don't care to ever get involved in these breeding issues.
    Too much trouble, IMHO…
    I don’t own Oldenburg Horses at all and never intend to…
    There is only one dark chocolate that I like - See's Raspberry.MMMMMMM. Other than that, I prefer milk chocolate with caramel and/or nougat. Nuts and chews is my favorite See's candy assortment box. I don't like Godiva, though, blech.
    Cartier, it seems like no one likes you here - why don't you go play elsewhere?”

    Mature intelligent adults don’t act like the posters we’ve seen recently. Many of these groupies are new, or they have no public profile, for all we know they are the same few people posting again and again under various names. We should be required to stick to facts and issues and be civil... there are important issues at stake.

    [This message was edited by Cartier on Oct. 04, 2003 at 12:55 PM.]



  6. #6
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    When the same individuals repeatedly beat the subject into the ground a five day suspension would have no effect.

    A discussion is worthwhile, a personal vendetta using the COTH forums as a public shouting block is not discussing an issue, it is insistent and annoying.

    If these people are so sure they are right, why don't they write letters to the editor of the COTH and other pertinent outlets to get their message across?

    As much as they say that the warring factions have been kept in the dark, why do so MANY of us here understand the situation? We have seen the catfight reinacted over and over to no end.

    Warmbloods.net and their own registries don't allow the bickering, why allow the fight to get carried on over here?

    As many of us are aware, "troublemakers" who bring up taboo topics are banned from COTH. Why should the rule be different for those few Oldenburg warriors who insist on beating this particular dead horse?

    Friendship is Love without his wings
    -Lord Byron
    "If you would have only one day to live, you should spend at least half of it in the saddle."



  7. #7
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    I have to agree with Spectrum. As long as people behave themselves, why should a discussion not be allowed? I e.g. did only know the German side. Very emotional of course. Now I learned a lot from this forum, the problems that the existence of the two or even more O registries in your country are causing and so on. On the other hand I believe I could give or at least tried to give input why this discussion is always emotional at this side of the pont and maybe give people an idea why even some people in the US also take that "problem" very seriously and emotional. Discussions help people to understand. I learned a lot of things on this forum about topics I had no idea I would be interested in e.g. about the very rare color of Parlello or however they are spelled. ;-) (By the way: a lot of humour in that thread !)
    I would definetly agree to the few days ban from the forum (I have no idea whether this is included in the moderators toolbox and whether keeping track on who was already on a five day ban or not would be possible.)
    But still a good idea to cool down some people and their posts. But these troublemakers are also troublemakers in real life and you cannot help them anyway. I know a forum where there is only linited access to the topics on Oldenburg and I also know that some of the posters here don't have the keyword to post or read. Since that time the discussions there are much better... But in my eyes not the best solution because now people who are new to the topic never learn anything about it. And most people are clever enough to see who is posting b...sh.t and who is writing well thought opinions... People are old enough to make their own decisions. But they have to remain polite and shouldn't attack personally.

    Alexandra


    I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC

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    [This message was edited by alexandra on Oct. 04, 2003 at 12:45 PM.]
    I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC
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  8. #8
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    I think discussions are a wonderful way to learn!! My God, where would be be without civil discourse?? This is a breeding forum, therefore the discussions should be around the breeding of horses. There are many breeds and registries in the US and world wide, and these forums are read world wide, this is the age of the world wide web!!! The ISR/OLDNA I believe is the largest warmblood registry in the US and one of the first, after the AHS pershaps, well really I don't know who started the first, I remember when Emil Jung brought the Holsteiners to VA, but never the less, there are a lot of people who breed with the ISR/OLDNA and a lot that bred with the GOV's branch here which is OBHS??? not sure of their title now without finding their site.

    The thing is, this is an important subject for a lot of people and every year there are more and more breeders entering the registries, and more and more people are buying our horses and want to get involved. When they are performance people they want all the year end awards or opportunities to acquire year end awards etc for their efforts. Just as breeders have discussed on other threads how they would like to receive recognition when their offspring have gone on to accomplish show awards/championships/year end awards etc.

    We should, here in America anyway, (what does America stand for??) be able to openingly discuss the merits, history, present and future plans of registeris. It would be very un-American to forbid the discourse of a couple of warmblood registries!! If you think you should limit the discussion of two particular registries, then why permit the discussion of any of the other breed associations or registries.

    I think the idea of excluding such discussion is very damgerous!! Just the fact of the idea that one BB which is supported by a horse magazine, COTH, should ban horse discussions, is walking on the very edge!!! Very surprizing that the suggestion should ever have become a topic.

    Now things that can be excluded from discourse is the mocking of a certain poster couple, by about 40 or so posters I have counted just on one thread.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Rule #1: Be nice, be respectful, be polite. Disagreement and discussion are fine; flaming and personal attacks are not.

    Rule #2: The board is to discuss issues, not individuals. Leave names and specifics out whenever possible. Don't name names unless what you're saying has been documented as fact in court or in print somewhere (bulletin boards don't count!) and you can back your statements up. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


    I have noticed that numerous posts by those mocking have been in violation of both rule #1 and rule #2 and nothing has been done in their violation, except the moderator has actually encouraged it.

    So I sincerely believe that the ISR/OLDNA and GOV discussion should go on. I believe the very rules of American discourse are challenged here.

    "There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man." Sir Winston Churchill (1874 - 1965)

    www.talloaksfarm.net
    http://www.talloaksfarm.net ---"Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts." --- Winston Churchill



  9. #9
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    While I believe the information in some of these threads is important, for those of us who are not currently breeding or buying Olds, it is very disconcerting. It is diffcult to figure out what is factual and what is the opinion of the poster. There is so much bickering going on between posters that it is difficult to learn anything. If someone were to be intrested in the OLD breed, and logged on to COTH for some research, they may well be turned off by the Oldenburg breed itself because of the controversy. I know from experience that these organizations are not the only breed organizations going through controversy, when you have people, you have opinions, naturally. I am new to breeding and I have found my breeding experience to be very informative and the breeders to be very nice and very helpful. When I see this kind of bickering going on, I question whether on or not I really want to get into the industry. I believe in breed loyalty and that we should promote our breed (s) of choice, but the arguing on these threads is not support. There is nothing wrong with saying "I like ISR Old. NA vs GOV because..." but I don't think beating a dead horse is going to get anywhere. These threads almost always deteriorate into personal attacks and arguements.

    "The only people who should be voting on this issue are people who are impacted by this issue…people who own and breed Oldenburg horses. I think that people with no material interest in the issue should stay out of it."


    BTW, does the fact that I don't have and Old. and don't breed Old. preclude me from learning about the breed? My trainer has an Old. stallion she is bringing along which is what has prompted my curiosity. I don't think that is a very fair statement.

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  10. #10
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    A discussion is just that, a discussion. If it is polite and respectful, it should be allowed. Freedom of speech and all that. If you don't want to read it, don't go to that topic. Simple as that.



  11. #11
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    Nobody is being FORCED to read or participate in these threads. I dont understand why you would ban it- if the subject matter is that upsetting to people- just DONT READ IT- simple as that. There are plenty of other subjects to read about on COTH BB. If certain people want to go on and on and make themselves look silly (and or rude)- so be it!



  12. #12
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    I even find the posts regarding this topic interesting for a variety of reasons - one being that I am often able to distinguish between people I would and would not do business with based on the way they handle themselves on this topic.

    I am constantly amazed by the unprofessionalism of some of the people and am glad to see it displayed here before I have forked over some cold, hard cash in a business deal...



  13. #13
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    I don't see a problem with having these discussions as long as people have a little bit of respect for one another...Many of us have horses that belong to either (including myself). Maybe we don't need to dicuss on a "vs" basis.. cause we all know that will cause arguments...We all just need to realize where the line should be drawn during heated discussions and if someone feels the need to target specific members it should be done through PT's NOT on the public board.

    Holsteiner Clique!
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  14. #14
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    Sketcher, I would have to agree with you that after all of these threads I have noticed people /posters with attitudes that I would never like owners of my horses to possess. Personalities and the inward qualities of people do come through in their postings on these threads, but that is not reason to eliminate free public civil discourse. Those are the things we can privately deal with off the public forums, whether through PT, email or just no comment which is probably the best way to handle it. Emotions get raging, but it is up to each one individually to control themselves as if they were in public. Just because it is the printed word instead of a public podium, one should be careful not to make fools out of themselves. Remember a word uttered is gone, you cannot change it, it is gone for all to hear. Do not send daggers!!! A kind reply works wonders. After all you can catch more bees with honey than you can with vinegar.

    "There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man." Sir Winston Churchill (1874 - 1965)

    www.talloaksfarm.net
    http://www.talloaksfarm.net ---"Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts." --- Winston Churchill



  15. #15
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    I am another of the posters who does not object to the discussions ... for several of the reasons already stated:

    1) If it gets too nasty and ridiculous, I don't have to read any more in that particular thread ... seems pretty simple to me, don't like it, don't read it.

    2) Additionally, any discussion which gets extremely heated gives me a pretty good basis for screening out people I would or would not choose to do business with by looking at "attitudes" ... I simply cannot deal comfortably with people who (even figuratively) stand on soapboxes and rant.

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  16. #16
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    "The only people who should be voting on this issue are people who are impacted by this issue…people who own and breed Oldenburg horses. I think that people with no material interest in the issue should stay out of it."

    ROTFLOLPIMP! Cartier, are you going to call Rob over this, too, and make us all send notarized affadavits certifying what breeds of horses we have before we can participate on this BB? What a crock!

    My vote is for banning. The interested parties have obviously identified themselves and aligned along their factions. If in the future new members ask about GOV v. ISR, we point them toward old threads (Mein Gott in Himmel we have enough of them!) or discuss privately via email or private topics.

    http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c.../icon_wink.gif On the other hand we could just ban the people who continually feel the need to discuss this issue in an inflammatory manner, and allow the "normal" people to do whatever they want.



  17. #17
    Erin is offline Schoolmaster Premium Member
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    In theory, I would agree with everyone who says that we should be able to discuss any subject, as long as it is civil and stays within the rules.

    However, it's the "civil" part that has historically been a problem with the Oldenburg registry discussions. And quite frankly, the moderators are sick of dealing with it. We do not enjoy feeling tied to our computers whenever the subject comes up, because we know it's only a matter of time before the discussion turns ugly.

    Worse still, certain parties involved in these threads make threats every time they dislike something one of the moderators does. In fact, on a previous Oldenburg thread, I deleted a post that violated the rules... I believe it was either too personal, or contained allegations of something illegal. I don't remember which. But it was deleted within minutes of being posted, because I happened to be at my computer at the time. Still, the party who was being denigrated in the post emailed me and complained, making vague threats of lawsuits... I suppose the only thing that would make this person happy is if I were clairvoyant and deleted the posts that violate rules BEFORE they appear?

    This is a policy change that has been under consideration for quite a long time. And has been noted on other threads, these Oldenburg discussions have been directly responsible for the closing of other forums. This isn't a problem that is unique to COTH.

    This is a free forum. You are not required to pay anything to play here. So if a certain subject becomes more trouble that it is worth -- both in terms of COTH time and resources and moderators' time and sanity -- then I'm not sure that COTH has any obligation to allow discussion of that topic to continue.

    Hence, the poll... to find out if the people who read this forum really DO find discussion of the topic to be of value. If people were overwhelmingly in favor of allowing discussion to continue, then perhaps that would outweigh the trouble that the topics cause to COTH.

    For those of you who are relatively new, I'd like to direct your attention to the "NGB Dispute" forum. The issue of the AHSA vs. the USET -- obviously a topic of VAST importance to almost the entire sport horse industry -- was discussed here at GREAT length.

    Those threads, however, stayed civil. I don't recall ever having to close any of them.



  18. #18
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    That is it in a nutshell.

    Civil discussion. No one has to agree with everyone else in order to get along but the Oldenburg wars have been and are continuing to be notorious.

    The members of the COTH forums have learned much about a number of subjects through civil discussions since the COTH started these message boards. Unfortunately, most of what we have all learned about Oldenburgs are that some of the people involved have their undies in a bundle, aren't achieving satisfaction through dealing with their registries and are screaming UNFAIR in every FREE forum available.

    AND when censured, turn their bitter bickering on to the very forum that they recently used as their shouting box.

    It will be interesting to see how this poll turns out next week when the majority of the members are back checking in.

    I personally hate the idea of banning topics but this situatation has become one that truly is unfair to those Oldenburg owners/breeders who participate usefully on this and other forums as well as to the forum moderators and host. Another instance of a few bad apples spoiling it for the majority. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...icon_frown.gif

    Friendship is Love without his wings
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  19. #19
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    sketcher
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I even find the posts regarding this topic interesting for a variety of reasons - one being that I am often able to distinguish between people I would and would not do business with based on the way they handle themselves on this topic.

    I am constantly amazed by the unprofessionalism of some of the people and am glad to see it displayed here before I have forked over some cold, hard cash in a business deal... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Very well said! SINCE I OWN A OLDDENBURG I WOULD LIKE THIS TO BE A OPEN TOPIC AND TALKED ABOUT LIKE ADULTS!

    CuriousGeorge
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Cartier, are you going to call Rob over this, too, and make us all send notarized affadavits certifying what breeds of horses we have before we can participate on this BB? What a crock <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    This is why this topic has problems. You and your BUllDOGS who we all know who you are can not act like adults and leave personal crap out of it. Like the 1st quote I would love to know who your farm is and what dealings you have with this subject beacuse I would never Do buisness with you or anyone that can not handle them selves like adultshttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...icon_smile.gif

    Erin here is your chance with personal crap BAN the people from the topic that act like that not the ones who can brings facts to the table and teach and help everyone learn about the 2 diffrent regs. And please dear god if this turns into choclate I will pukehttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...icon_frown.gif

    Ashley
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  20. #20
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    I did not reply to the poll because I do not have an Oldenburg and do not feel it is my place to vote on this issue.

    On the other hand, after having read through the pages of posts about the ISR vs. GOV issues, I will never consider buying an Oldenburg. To say I have been turned off the breed by the breeders here is an understatement.

    Founder of the Olde Farte Clique; Member of the Dented Thigh Clique http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c.../icon_wink.gif
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