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  1. #1
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    Mar. 7, 2003
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    Mudville, GA ;-)
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    O.K. I need a bit of support and some positive stories would help too.

    I just got off the phone with trainer who is starting my new baby. He wants to send her home. This is the baby who is 3 y.o. and 17hh and won't tie. He's been trying to quietly get the tieing thing taken care of (inner tubes, etc.) with no luck. But it seems that the filly has some issues with being told what to do in general, not just where to stand.

    Her attitude on the ground is lovely until you ask something of her that she doesn't want to do, then she throws a tantrum. Like this week: Monday was fine, she worked in tack in the round pen. Tuesday she threw herself on the ground when the saddle came out. Wednesday rained out. Thursday she had a tantrum being led in tack and she BROKE and innertube while trying not to tie. Today she had to be cut off the innertube because she was violently banging her head against the tree while practically hanging from a limb. She then exploded and jumped out of the pasture and started running down the road http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...s/icon_eek.gif

    I won't spend more space going into her problems, but the trainer thinks that he's not going to be able to do anything with her. I am wondering if her maturity level is playing into this. She really is a nice girl, but I think being in the 'training barn' is stressing her out. I don't expect things to be perfect, but what are the chances that keeping her home and taking things very slowly will be better for her? She's got loads of potential, and I don't want to give up on her, but this trainer is the only one anywhere near me that I'd trust with my babies. I believe him when he says this gal has problems and as nice as she is I don't want to do anything to endanger myself or her.

    Help - I need some support or something! Kind words would be welcome... Like, "You are not an idiot Suz", "Things will be o.k." PLEASE!
    Y'all ain't right!



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar. 7, 2003
    Location
    Mudville, GA ;-)
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    O.K. I need a bit of support and some positive stories would help too.

    I just got off the phone with trainer who is starting my new baby. He wants to send her home. This is the baby who is 3 y.o. and 17hh and won't tie. He's been trying to quietly get the tieing thing taken care of (inner tubes, etc.) with no luck. But it seems that the filly has some issues with being told what to do in general, not just where to stand.

    Her attitude on the ground is lovely until you ask something of her that she doesn't want to do, then she throws a tantrum. Like this week: Monday was fine, she worked in tack in the round pen. Tuesday she threw herself on the ground when the saddle came out. Wednesday rained out. Thursday she had a tantrum being led in tack and she BROKE and innertube while trying not to tie. Today she had to be cut off the innertube because she was violently banging her head against the tree while practically hanging from a limb. She then exploded and jumped out of the pasture and started running down the road http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...s/icon_eek.gif

    I won't spend more space going into her problems, but the trainer thinks that he's not going to be able to do anything with her. I am wondering if her maturity level is playing into this. She really is a nice girl, but I think being in the 'training barn' is stressing her out. I don't expect things to be perfect, but what are the chances that keeping her home and taking things very slowly will be better for her? She's got loads of potential, and I don't want to give up on her, but this trainer is the only one anywhere near me that I'd trust with my babies. I believe him when he says this gal has problems and as nice as she is I don't want to do anything to endanger myself or her.

    Help - I need some support or something! Kind words would be welcome... Like, "You are not an idiot Suz", "Things will be o.k." PLEASE!
    Y'all ain't right!



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct. 5, 1999
    Posts
    4,777

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    What kind of discipline has she received when having these outbursts?

    I'm wondering if the horse either wasn't disciplined and NEEDS to be, or if she was disciplined and it was too harsh....just a shot in the dark http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...n_confused.gif



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep. 12, 2003
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    The Great North. Canada!
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    104

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    Hello. Maybe you can go to one of the Pat Parelli clinics. I've never tried natural horsemanship with my horse, but I've heard alot of success stories about dealing with problem horses.



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep. 7, 1999
    Location
    Tuscaloosa, Alabama
    Posts
    11,201

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    I would also like to know her "since birth" history. And what is her breeding?

    Robby

    Take me to the river, drop me in the water
    http://community.webshots.com/user/rbjohnsonii
    When blood is the beverage of choice, the sharpest fangs feed first.



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb. 3, 2000
    Location
    Nokesville, VA
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    It sounds as if you have an "alpha mare" in the making.

    If she won't accept being told what to do, things will only get worse later.

    You have to somehow make her accept the handler as "even more alpha", without scaring her or hurting her.

    It is largely a question of timimg and personality (and being able to read the horse's body language), as much as specific techniques, so it is hard to describe in words. My sister is REALLY good at it, I am moderately good at it, and I know some otherwise perfectly competent horsewomen who simply can't figure it out.

    There have ben quite a few threads on the breeding forum about teaching young stock (especially "stallion prospects") to accept the handler as "alpha", so you might check there.

    A couple of techniques mentioned there include-

    For 3 seconds, the horse should think the world is about to end. Then everything should go back to normal.

    Backing up - for many steps- is a useful correction in many cases.

    But sucess really depends on timing and reading the body language- recognizing the moment the horse is challenging you- before it becomes overt misbehavior, and similarly recognizing the moment the horse is ready to submit and accept you.

    This is something a lot of the "natural horsemanship" people do well- but they don't have a monopoly on it.

    Janet
    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar. 7, 2003
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    Mudville, GA ;-)
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    Pacific Solo- This gal has been getting (IMHO) very consistant, firm, but not harsh discipline at the trainers. I really like this guy. He starts a lot of babies, and they develop into well mannered, balanced beasties. He started my daughter's young TB and I really like his style. I think she's getting appropriate discipline now, but she's getting into that 'dumblood' mode where she just won't give up and things escalate when she starts fighting authority.

    As for life before me, I think she didn't have much discipline. She was "handled daily" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...icon_smile.gif Owners said that she tied there, then I thought back to how she was tied for wrapping on the trip home. Their idea of tieing was to loop the leadrope around the post in the stall. Well sure, a 17hh horse is gonna stand in the stall with people around! There's nowhere to go! I think she was just played with, but not really educated, if you know what I mean.

    Robby Johnson- She's a HAN by Evergreen out of a TB mare who is a bit hot and tends to be a one person horse. She was at the farm where she was born until I brought her home 2 months ago. Before that the only time she left the farm was to go to HAN inspection as baby with her mom. To me she's made the move well and is calm and settled at my farm. She was very well behaved at the recent inspection at Home Again Farm in FLA. I'd say she's the #2 horse and isn't very pushy with the other mares.
    Y'all ain't right!



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun. 5, 2000
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    906

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    I am a BIG fan of the Parelli method.
    It saved my a$$ numerous times both financially and literally.

    Member of the Baby Greenie Support Group
    Finally down to a manageable number!



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan. 21, 2002
    Location
    my desk
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    861

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    Is she a warmblood? Just curious. Edited - posted at the same time as the "dumblood" description. Some of them can be so stubborn!

    I guess one option would be send her to a cowboy to learn about her place in the world. I've never had to do it, but I've been tempted in the past. I think if my horse was that large and challenging at three, I'd want to get her butt in shape very quickly. I have a big one (17.2ish) who at five is a handful on the ground (just bought him last year) and it can be exhausting dealing with him. If she's that big at three, don't let it escalate because I'm willing to bet when she gets bigger, she will get worse.

    I believe there was a similar thread a while back about a horse named "Shammy." Might want to do a search for it as many posters seemed to have useful suggestions.

    Good luck. I hope you're able to get through to her.



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar. 14, 2000
    Location
    WA. The Evergreen State Where The Horses Are Forever Green
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    17,256

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    You are in GA?
    Maybe DMK can help you.

    "Proud Member Of The I Love Dublin, Starman Babies, Mini Horse, Sunnieflax and Horse Boxes Cliques"
    "Remember: You're A Customer In A Service Industry."




  11. #11
    Join Date
    Apr. 8, 2003
    Location
    Urbana, MD
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    Unless you know what you are doing with babies, please send her off to someone else. I feel as though I am an OK rider. I have riden horses for some time now and thought it would be educational and fun to break my new filly. After reading everything I could on training a youngster, bottom line, I didn't know enough. 1 shattered wrist later from a silly accident, I sent my 3 y.o. out for training. After a lot of checking around, I found a trainer a ways away from me that has been great. It is a pain as I can only get to see her 1x a week because of the drive. But, in the long run, this is what she needs. My trainer lovers her and has been able to teach her things that I just couldn't get into that thick, 16'2 wb head. when they get this big ( and wide http://chronicleforums.com/images/cu...milies/lol.gif) they get strong. They just don't realize it yet. My filly is a love on the ground. she just needed a confident but gentle ridder to explain the ground rules to her.
    Don't give up but make your life easy. Find another trainer.
    Good luck http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...on_biggrin.gif
    Every day I learn how little I know when it comes to dressage!



  12. #12
    Join Date
    May. 7, 2003
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    117

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    What has the horse had done with her before this? In all fairness to the horse, 3 yrs and 17 hands is a little late to be learning to tie.

    Not blaming you or anything but for the breeders out there, it is imperative that the babies learn some basic manners etc from birth. This will alleviate many many problems later on down the road.

    Weanlings can't break tires and they also are much more easily taught many things while we humans are still bigger than they are.

    Now, off my soapbox...Your baby may never get it. She's big and knows it. My recommendation is to take her to a western trainer. They are often much more successful with babies like this.

    Is there an AQHA circuit around you? Ask around about who starts their babies and problems. Western saddles and the cowboy way maybe your ticket.



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Oct. 8, 2000
    Location
    East of LA-LA Land, Calif.
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    10,288

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    Actually, I rather admire your trainer for being honest enough to tell you to come get your baby. I've dealt with both kinds of baby horse trainers: those who are honest... and those who continue to take your money and lie to you over the phone about your horse's progress.

    In the 15 years we raised horses, we had a couple who were sent home from school. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...icon_frown.gif But in every case, eventually they came around and went back to training and were successful riding/show horses.

    What made the difference? I think being able to evaluate each horse as an individual. Not every horse fits in every program.

    With two of our fillies, it took:
    1. Methodically introducing the new concept
    2. Patiently explaining what behavior was expected
    3. Soothing any obvious real "fears" of the task or situation
    4. Once that's settled, reinforcing the wishes of the human, even if it requires the 30-second "Come to Jesus" altercation

    It was a good-natured "cowboy" sort who helped work the wonders every time. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c.../icon_wink.gif
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    "It's not the years, honey. It's the mileage." - Indiana Jones



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar. 7, 2003
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    Mudville, GA ;-)
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    Black Dog- I appreciate where you are coming from. I've been owning horses for 30 years (wow), and I've been through alot of disciplines before I came to hunters: WP, ASB's and TWH's, Arabs, eventing. I'm not the most stylish rider, but I have a good seat and have seen a lot of problems over the years. That said, I don't feel the need to prove anything, and I'm too old, with too many responsibilties to deal with a serious problem horse. I'm hoping that this is all in the timing and approach.

    Merry- Thanks! I really wanted to hear that with time and patience she might come around - that others have http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...icon_smile.gif
    Y'all ain't right!



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Apr. 8, 2003
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    Urbana, MD
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    615

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    It is! when I went out to check on her progress, in 2 weeks, this guy had her walking, trotting and , in general, having manners under tack. Oh course, she's 3 and still has her moments, but she's come so far so quickly. This guy has been at this for a long time. He says it's just timing and getting them to wait for you to tell them when. If it makes you feel any better, the trainer says, in his experience, mares take a little longer to get things, but once they get it, they have it forever ( still trying to decide if this is good or not http://chronicleforums.com/images/cu...milies/lol.gif)
    I wish I knew someone down south to suggest.
    Every day I learn how little I know when it comes to dressage!



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Dec. 12, 2000
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    Washington, D.C., U.S.A.
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    Oy. If you know this trainer, and trust his advice, I'd consider very seriously that he may be right. But just because he hasn't had success doesn't mean it might not be worth another try.

    When good traditional training doesn't work, I would try Parelli NEXT. It may not work, but there is not a lot of "downside" to it.

    If that doesn't work, you may have to consider the "cowboy" option. This should be your last resort. Sometimes, it is what they need... but sending a horse to a cowboy generally has one of two consequences... either it gets fixed,... or the horse gets PERMANENTLY ruined.

    Use it as a last resort.

    That said, there have been a handful of horses that I have known in my life that really weren't worth the risk. TWO of them were horses that learned to fling itself down on the ground instead of working. This is a dangerous "trick", and its hard to break. If she's learned it, beware. Ultimately,... there are too many nice horses out there, deserving of your love and attention... don't risk becoming a quadraplegic for one rotten apple.

    Half of Riding is 30% mental ... no wonder there are so many bad riders http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...n_rolleyes.gif



  17. #17
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    Mar. 7, 2003
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    Mudville, GA ;-)
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    O.K. you guys need to know a bit about my trainer. He is a bit of a cowboy. His specialty is reining horses (with live cows). His horses win big, and he looks like a great big cowboy. But, he comes from an eventing/Pony Club background. He evented as a kid/teen. His mom is an 'A' level examiner. He starts a lot of WB's for some of the breeders in the area. He did alot for my daughter's young TB, and he really puts emphasis on how the horse uses itself. He focuses on balance, keeping the beastie off the forehand, and going well in the bridle. He knows when a horse is using its hindend. He's so good at getting all that across to horse and rider that my daughter tried to get him to give her regular lessons. Unfortunately for us, he prefers to teach the beasties, although my kid does get to take hers back for ocassional 'freshen-ups'.
    He will sometimes use the oldfashioned cowboy ways, but we are both hesitant to try this with my gal because, well frankly, she's a valuable horse and it's not worth hurting her in the process.

    rileyt- "Oy" is exactly how I'm feeling!! I trust my trainer and value his opinion. I know he treats each horse like it's his while it's in his barn. I also know he won't just take my money if he doesn't think he can do anything with this horse. I'm grappling with deciding when to say "when", and what to do at that point.
    Y'all ain't right!



  18. #18
    Join Date
    Nov. 21, 2002
    Location
    Durham, NC
    Posts
    970

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    Check your PT's.



  19. #19
    Join Date
    Oct. 5, 2000
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    school
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    I"m really with Merry and black dog. It takes the right training, appllied the right way, at the right time, to get through.

    Some trainers only have 'so many' tools at their disposal.. this is why everyone says 'send him to a cowboy'; they have tools the english trainers don't have (and vice versa too). Sometimes you need the right tool.

    That said, it could be one of two things. The mare is too smart and dirty to ever be a riding horse, OR she needs to come around. Obviously which one of the two will be apparent in time.
    I sent one home, and I sent one (my own young pony prospect a while ago) to meat (first horse I've ever had to do that to http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...icon_frown.gif )

    The first, I knew she would come around, but that I wasn't the right person for her. We got along fine, really, nothing really major, but didn't see eye to eye, and it wasn't fair to either of us.

    The second, well the poor little guy was a disaster in the making. I sent hi in too late, but thankfully and almost luckily, noone got hurt. His behaviour was dangerous to himself, but also or mostly to humans.

    I also had one mare who went with head-bashing once while loading. Dont' think I wasn't completely freaked out, but at least I was at the point to say "have it your way" and let her work it out for herself. She's loaded beautifully since.

    I've also taken not a few that were considered 'untrainable' and got along just fine, with never a blip. Not that I would ever advertise for 'problem horses', but some were just more suited to me and my methods than anyone else in the world.

    I guess at the end, you have to decide along with your gut feeling wether this mare is one who will come around, or who is one of those unfortunate horses who can't be trained without significant risk of injury to herself or people.
    With the pony I had put down, noone in the world would do anything with him. They were all right. But he also couldn't be used for breeding, raising foals, pasture buddy, etc, AND he was a threat to humans, so off he went http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...icon_frown.gif
    I had one unridable mare, who with her great bloodlines went off to brood. And I've had and sent out horses I just couldn't personally get along with, knowling full well someone else could.

    ..sorry so long.. just some ramblings from 'the other side'..


    Uhhh... I think I'll call it Bob.
    BOB?? You can't call a Planet Bob!!
    Why not. PlanetBob..has a nice ring to it..



  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jul. 24, 2003
    Location
    Cambridge
    Posts
    124

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    I would recommend that you get some advice from Parelli. I am in the process of starting my level 2. There are some great things you can do with your horse without hurting them, like mentioned before... his methods work and you will definatley see changes for the better in your horse. Doesn't hurt to try, go on their website to get contact info.
    www.parelli.com

    "In riding horses, we borrow freedom"
    \"In riding horses, we borrow freedom\"
    http://community.webshots.com/user/jana000



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