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  1. #1
    Weatherford is offline Schoolmaster Premium Member
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    Let's (once again http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c.../icon_wink.gif ) get away from the problems inherent on the other thread and discuss the problem as it may present itself to each of us hypothetically.

    Here are some situations:

    (True one) Trainer (male - nearing 60) makes girls have sex and threatens to tell their parents/take them off the horses/ not allow them to ride if they don't agree. Girls are from 10 - 16.

    Trainer (male or female) falls in love with 12/14/16 year old boy (or girl) and takes advantage of the situation before waiting for child to be the age of consent. Said trainer is 20 or 50...

    Abuse doesn't necessarily involve "violence" or lack of cooperation on the part of the youngster (even though, by definition, sex with a minor by an adult is violent!) for many of the reasons mentioned on the other thread. The worst part is that the long term implications of a child having sex with an adult are FAR more serious and horrific than most of you want to know. ANYONE who thinks that a GIRL or BOY at the age of 14 (or younger or even older) "ASKED" for it and deserves it needs to spend some time in a clinic working with abused kids and adults who have been abused.

    As was stated numerous times on the other thread, the ADULT IS RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS/HER ACTIONS.

    That is the LAW - that is also the MORAL law.

    It's OUT! Linda Allen's 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...on_biggrin.gif
    co-author of 101 Jumping Exercises & The Rider's Fitness Program; Soon to come: Dead Ringer - a tale of equine mystery and intrique! Former Moderator!



  2. #2
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    Let's (once again http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c.../icon_wink.gif ) get away from the problems inherent on the other thread and discuss the problem as it may present itself to each of us hypothetically.

    Here are some situations:

    (True one) Trainer (male - nearing 60) makes girls have sex and threatens to tell their parents/take them off the horses/ not allow them to ride if they don't agree. Girls are from 10 - 16.

    Trainer (male or female) falls in love with 12/14/16 year old boy (or girl) and takes advantage of the situation before waiting for child to be the age of consent. Said trainer is 20 or 50...

    Abuse doesn't necessarily involve "violence" or lack of cooperation on the part of the youngster (even though, by definition, sex with a minor by an adult is violent!) for many of the reasons mentioned on the other thread. The worst part is that the long term implications of a child having sex with an adult are FAR more serious and horrific than most of you want to know. ANYONE who thinks that a GIRL or BOY at the age of 14 (or younger or even older) "ASKED" for it and deserves it needs to spend some time in a clinic working with abused kids and adults who have been abused.

    As was stated numerous times on the other thread, the ADULT IS RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS/HER ACTIONS.

    That is the LAW - that is also the MORAL law.

    It's OUT! Linda Allen's 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...on_biggrin.gif
    co-author of 101 Jumping Exercises & The Rider's Fitness Program; Soon to come: Dead Ringer - a tale of equine mystery and intrique! Former Moderator!



  3. #3
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Let's (once again ) get away from the problems inherent on the other thread and discuss the problem as it may present itself to each of us hypothetically.

    Here are some situations:
    (True one) Trainer (male - nearing 60) makes girls have sex and threatens to tell their parents/take them off the horses/ not allow them to ride if they don't agree. Girls are from 10 - 16. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    What do you mean, "true one"? If this is a "true" situation, how will it be discussed "hypothetically"? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...n_confused.gif



  4. #4
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    I'm on the other side of this issue

    I asked for it. I would never want the other person to be involved in anything negative regarding what I... or we... did. I think that some of the adults on this board underestimate a young girls understanding of sex. I knew exactly what I wanted and how to get it.

    Sometimes I look back on my life and wish I had done things different but I know that theres nothing I can do to cange the past. So maybe he is at fault for not saying no to me and maybe someone should have told me what a 16 yo is capable of. I didnt know what I could do.

    Maybe I grew up to fast or maybe I never did grow up. Right now my life is going great... never wake up at night crying thinking what have I done, never question my morals. Now I only have sex with someone Im in a relationship with but I think that has come with age and experience not the relationship with the man.

    Marion
    *Gregor* *Amalia* *Purdy Special* *Grand Canyon*



  5. #5
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    If we accept that 25% (though I suspect the real data's higher) of girls in the 'civilian population' will be sexually abused (loose definition of abuse) at one point in their lives, I wonder, given the number of young girls within the sport, whether the stats would be higher in horse sports. Have any of the governing bodies conducted a study? Is there protocol in place for dealing with trainers, for example, who are charged/convicted of sexual abuse of a minor? Are they banned, reprimanded, prohibited from participation in sanctioned events?

    Marion, can I ask why you were sexually involved with the referenced man? Was it sexual attraction, a need for approval, etc? Would you have been equally interested at 14 - which, in my mind, is almost a world away from 16. BTW, I think your honesty is admirable. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...icon_smile.gif



  6. #6
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    He was a great rider and trainer, pretty good looking but not so well known yet. I thought how great to get a peice of that? I was 16 and not a virgin so for me it was to prove to myself that I was capable of getting a guy like that. So it was more of a sexual attraction. At the time I was under the impresion that he thought I was older but looking back on it Im sure he just wanted to mess around with a little girl.

    At 14 I think that it would be a little more for approval or acceptance. There is a HUGE difference between 14 and 16, as well as 16 and 18. At 14 I would have thought of him as nothing more then an adult trainer. I would have known he was a guy, obviousely, but never would have considered him in a sexual way. At age 16 however I was definalty aware of what he was like outside of what his role should have been of role model/ trainer/ father figure.

    Im a lot older now and know a lot more, would never be with someone that much older then me. It was a learning experience for sure but not a traumatizing one. Yes I have cried over it but nothing anyone could have said would have changed my course of action. It was something I had to learn on my own.

    I'd like to add that I have wonderful parents that have given me a great horse and wonderful new trainers that I just think are the greatest. I would not say that I have had any seriouse negative problems resulting from my own actions.

    Marion
    *Gregor* *Amalia* *Purdy Special* *Grand Canyon*



  7. #7
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    Marion, I've been thinking of your post most of the night...and I keep returning to the fact that he, as your trainer and senior, should absolutely have restrained himself.

    Regardless of your desire for him, regardless of his desire for you, he had been placed in a position of trust and authority - and, beyond the legal ramifications, he not only violated your trust but the implicit trust of your parents. As you yourself noted, there's a huge gulf between 14 and 16 - as there is between 16 and 18.

    So, on that note, here's my little story - one that two people on this planet know.

    I was molested by my father's friend when I was six. A single Korean bachelor who glommed onto my father as a seemingly surrogate older brother. I didn't recount the incident to my parents and my most vivid memory is of extreme shame and discomfort. For the most part, I can state with full knowledge that it's had very little impact on my life -- except that I was virtually molested last month by a Korean accupuncturist. And, again, I was silenced.

    As is probably evident from this BB, I'm pretty vocal - and that's how most people of my acquaintance would describe me. Loud and opinionated, assertive. But, somehow, this Korean accunpuncturist, without uttering a single word, was able to undo my pants, hike up my shirt and do to me what NO ONE ELSE would have gotten away with.

    And, so, I think back to that first instance of sexual interference. And I think that there's a power that this effing bastard still has - that does, in bloody fact, resonate through my life. And this knowledge utterly pisses me off.

    My husband wants, first, to beat the crap out of the accupuncturist; then he wants me to file charges. His argument is that if I, bitch that I am, a Woman's Studies grad to boot, can let him get away with his - how many others are there, who aren't as assertive, who've remained silent?

    Here's where I return to your scenario, Marion. If your former trainer suffers from such a lapse in judgement, which is a terribly nice way of putting it, isn't it possible that he continues to very well force himself on a student who doesn't necessarily 'want' him? That somewhere out there is a teen student who was talked into sleeping with him - for all the wrong reasons? Who still bears within herself the residual, and I'd bet life-long, damage of his actions?

    And sleeping with a man just because you want to prove to yourself that you can attract someone of a certain 'calibre' - darling, you can be 16, 30, or 50, it almost always sucks.

    I am glad, BTW, that things are going well for you, that you're with trainers who are supportive. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...icon_smile.gif

    [This message was edited by Heidi on Apr. 28, 2003 at 10:24 PM.]



  8. #8
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    No offense Heidi, and I'm sorry for what you've been through, but it seems (to me atleast) that you're doing a little too much "blame the victim" with Marion.

    I, like someone else, applaud her for her honesty. She knows it wasn't the right thing to do. But as someone else said, it's the ADULT who is responsible in that situation NOT to take advantage of the child. JMVHO.

    Edited to say: Sorry Heidi, it was actually you who gave Marion credit first for her honesty.

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  9. #9
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    Regardless of whether a 16 year old is sophisticated or not, mature or not, virgin or not, they are still a child. Regardless of whether the teenager knows "what they want and how to get it", it is incumbent on the adult to have better judgement. The adult has more knowledge and experience about life and the sometimes serious ramifcations of casual decisions. A person of 16 years old simply doesn't have the experience to process the information. I remember at that age, it used to piss me off to hear adults speak this way. Having lost a friend or two to STDs, having seen friends drop out of college because they were pregnant, having watched my brother's life taken a radically different path than the one he dreamed because he fathered a child at 21 or my sister become involved with a man 20 years her senior (a college professor) and not be able to extract herself from the relationship for 7 years; I now have a different understanding. I am sure the adult in these situations should have had better judgement. And I think they should be accountable if they don't.

    There is an inherent inequitity that comes into play in these types of relationships. It is abuse even if the younger party wanted it. It is not the same kind of predatory offense that is perpetrated by a molestor on an innocent child or a rapist, but it is still wrong.
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  10. #10
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    Oh, there is just NO easy way to say this without making a wholesale big swath of a generality but here goes anyway:

    Yes, the adult SHOULD be the adult and just say no. But, honestly, people, I'd bet if we truly admitted it to ourselves, we'd be hard pressed to come up with many men (sexist sow that I am) who would walk away when opportunity presented itself.

    I am NOT saying that that is right morally, legally, ethically or any other way. I just happen to think that some -- not all, but SOME -- in the business are drawn to the business for less than savory reasons. And I think those same people are the ones who will make the most of a given situation.

    Again, not right. But it's reality. And if we don't like it, it's up to us to make sure they don't have a place in the business.

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  11. #11
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    Here's another analogy: I met my 'first love' when I was 15. Okay, he was a hairdresser but lord was I convinced of my love for him. I pursued him, subtly, and not so subtly, for five years. There's no doubt that he could have had me when I was 16 - but he didn't. And therein, the difference, or the line in the sand that can be drawn between 'moral' and 'the uberly-funked'. Even he, and I don't otherwise give him much credit, knew, explicitly, implicitly, and every which way till Friday, that I was young, vulnerable, suffered from more than a smidge of idol worship - and he backed off until I was 20.

    I think most of my male friends would walk away from anyone who remotely approached anything resembling 18 - they'd otherwise flee should the radar beep at 16. I give men more credit for being able to distinguish between a horny 16 year old and a horny 24 year old.



  12. #12
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    You cannot accept bad behavior and a bad code of ethics as right because everyone does it. At 16, is the age for a declaration of independence and a beginning of being grown up. It's the time in your life when you test the waters.

    An adult should be able to recognize the potential seduction technique which is probably very brazen at 16. I don't believe for one minute that what sandstone says is not just a case of denial. She was asserting herself yes! but the trainer had a responsibility to not take advantage, and if he did take advantage of her then I wouldn't trust him with horses or my child's life and well being. His judgement is flawed by personal gratification and a need to feel he is still attractive to very young girls.

    There was some reason that she needed to prove her value and self esteem was based on her ability to seduce instead of her brain or her talent. What would have happened to her if he said NO? Would she have felt worthless and lose self esteem. Or, did the incident affect the way she saw all men.

    The weakness we have as females since we have come out of the Dark Ages as women is when your self worth is still determined by whether or not you can attract a male or keep one happy.

    The main reason I have enjoyed my life so totally since I was 50 is because being sexy is not my priary attribute. You cannot imagine the real pleasure that comes from someone who respects you for what you think. This is why my husband has been my best friend since I was 15 when we met and started "dating".

    As to the accupucture incident, we don't know if there was adminsistered some sort of methodology that flattened your reactions. I agree with your husband in this case. You need to make sure that man as the other before him never have the opportunity to do the same again without being branded by Cain's sign of evil doing.

    Just suppose you had been given some disease, would you not feel guilty for not having saved others from the problem. I think because you were so vulnerable in the first instance that you were incapable of defending yourself. To right the wrongs done to you, you have to admit they were wrong.

    Battle Scarred Veteran

    [This message was edited by Snowbird on Apr. 28, 2003 at 10:59 PM.]



  13. #13
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    Edited to add:
    First off, since I did not address the TOPIC of hte original thread (and neither did Sandstone) let me first address that.

    Sexual abuse is wrong. It is wrong when it is minor/minor, adult/minor. It is wrong when it is a person in a position of power or authority.

    The rest is truly thread drift as it doesn't deal with ABUSE.

    End Edit

    I don't know if I can say this well, but I'll try.

    I think that we are attempting to keep teenagers "children" too long. WAY too long.

    When I was ready to become sexually active, I did so. I was a HS graduate, about to enter college, the man was 7 years older than me, and not only that I was 17. By the definitions being slung around here, I was "abused". http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...n_rolleyes.gif

    I was pissed off at the entire world from about 14 on because I needed a job to earn money...I ended up lying about my age being "19" and working in a restaurant that sold alcohol. At the time, the drinking age was still 19 in Texas.

    Now, at a certain point, there is an age difference that is probably too extreme, but I also think that the age of the man has to be taken into account. A man in his early to mid 20's is often about the same maturity level as a young woman of 16-18 IME. Or do I just happen to have known really immature teenage young men?

    Once a young woman is a couple of years into puberty, like Marion says, there is not much she'll stop at if she wants to seduce a man. Or were the girls when I was a teenager (and since) more mature than some of you are giving them credit for...some rose-colored glasses, nostalgia sort of thing?

    BTW, I married that guy a few years later and we've been married for over 14 years. Had anyone tried to start any legislative garbage I would have applied to be an emancipated minor. There is no abuse in our relationship and I've never regretted marrying young. And, to be quite honest, if after 25 years of marriage we grew apart and divorced I just don't think you could blame my age at the wedding.

    Mel

    [This message was edited by SaddleFitterVA on Apr. 29, 2003 at 10:29 PM.]



  14. #14
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    I think saddlefitter that you were in a different situation as I was when I met my now husband. We have by the way been married 50 years.

    Most girls are not so fortunate and not so ready to be sure they are right. When we met my husband was 20 and I was 15, and yes! there are differences in the aging of the sexes.

    This thread is about the influence of a teacher as a role model on a susceptible student. Just as I believe it was equally wrong for the female teachers to take advantage of a 15 year old boy and make him a father at 16, it is equally wrong to use the authority and respect of an instructor to take advantage. I mean afterall even Princess Diana couldn't resist her riding instructor and look what he did to her reputation.

    Battle Scarred Veteran



  15. #15
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    But, Mel, that's you - and as much as we'd like, we can't project our own experiences on everyone else. Ask yourself this, had you been 14 or 15 - and the man your trainer, would you draw the same conclusions?

    That's, BTW, the crux of the issue for me. A sport that so empowers our girls, maneuvering around a course a 1000 lb animal, shouldn't be undermined because we tolerate...too much in the name of victory, a damned blue ribbon.

    And, Snowbird, you so remind me of my beloved grandmother...and you are, as is my husband, absolutely right. Give me a week or so to digest it all before I lay charges.



  16. #16
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    Good Go! Heidi, I probably am very much like your old grandmother. You know the first step in any cure is an admission of the abuse. And, the second step vindication will set your free. Sweeping secrets under the carpet stay there and I doubt that many young girls have not had an unpleasant situation to deal with during their youth from lecherous young or old men.

    If this new age is to do any good it has to be the generation that says enough! That's where our freedom lies. Boys don't have to be boys, they can be people.

    When I was young and pretty I had a job in Manhattan and this gorgeous man I worked with invited me to go home with him...because his wife was in the hospital having his baby and he couldn't control himself to stay celebate even under those circumstances. I just couldn't feel sorry for him.

    Battle Scarred Veteran



  17. #17
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    Snowbird,

    You are right in respect to the role of teacher, and on the low side of those ages, it is very questionable behavior. But, I have a problem with painting all sex between an adult and a minor with the same brush. I guess it was Weatherford's including 20 in the age of the trainer that made me respond.

    Also, if it was serial behavior, then that is a problem, if it is a case of true love, and is not habitual, I once again don't think it is always awful, even if the relationship only lasted a few years. There are many successful relationships that started with a teacher/student relationship. Lots of failures too, but heck those #'s hold true for all relationships.

    In the code of ethics for being a yoga teacher the correct thing to do (assuming both parties are single) is to ask the person you are attracted to to change to another class before starting anything.

    I do agree that there is too young, but don't agree that 18 is that magical number. For some it is 15, for others, 16....I am dubious about 14 though, since I was pretty darned mature, but was not at that point at 14...nor were ANY of my girlfriends.

    Mel



  18. #18
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    The point is that if this person were not already someone you trusted and respected because of their position then you might not have responded the same way to a passing stranger.

    A riding instructor is someone who tells you when you are afraid yes! you can do it! And, you face your fear and win. That is different than meeting someone older who can become a friend.

    It's like when you have your first baby, the Pediatrician is the one person to whom you entrust your most valuable creation, your baby. All women usually wind up having crushes on their Pediatrician but the Pediatrician understands that and shouldn't take advantage.

    Battle Scarred Veteran



  19. #19
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Heidi:
    But, Mel, that's you - and as much as we'd like, we can't project our own experiences on everyone else. Ask yourself this, had you been 14 or 15 - and the man your trainer, would you draw the same conclusions?
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    But, doesn't everyone to a degree do the same thing? While I was never sexually abused myself, I am no stranger to it, it ran rampant in my family....screwed up a couple of the women pretty badly. It also affected their outlook on sex and relationships greatly and not favorably.

    The thing is, these were true sexual abuse, the unsolicited kind, along the lines of what you experienced, and while a trainer may be making a VERY poor judgement call in starting an relationship with a mature teenager, who might be pursuing him, I don't think he is criminal.

    And, I DO think you should press charges against that acupuncturist jerk.

    Mel



  20. #20
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Beezer:
    Yes, the adult _SHOULD_ be the adult and just say no. But, honestly, people, I'd bet if we truly admitted it to ourselves, we'd be hard pressed to come up with many men (sexist sow that I am) who would walk away when opportunity presented itself.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Now Beezer - I'm a woman who put the bitter in Angostura, but even I can say that to hold men to such a low standard is to allow them to be pigs with impunity!

    All men bloody well should behave: and if a man can't master his hormones - let him have it!

    There is no excuse - none. They do have brains contrary to popular opinion and should be forced to use them.

    And Heidi I'm very sorry to hear about the vermin that assaulted you: please don't let it go. It makes me furious, more so to think he's doing the same thing to someone else, maybe right now.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...s/icon_mad.gif

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