The Chronicle of the Horse
MagazineNewsHorse SportsHorse CareCOTH StoreVoicesThe Chronicle UntackedDirectoriesMarketplaceDates & Results
 
Results 1 to 20 of 20
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul. 30, 2005
    Location
    England
    Posts
    10,723

    Default What colour is this colt?

    http://www.adhorse.co.uk/horseforsale_35198.html

    He's advertiesed as a grullo, but looks more palomino to me. Sorry for the direct link to the ad- I'm not connected to him in anyway.

    Thanks!
    Horse Show Names Free name website with over 6200 names. Want to add? PM me!



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec. 27, 2006
    Posts
    529

    Default

    His sire is a confirmed smoky grullo - that's a black + dun + one cream gene.

    The colt is definitely black-based with SOME kind of dilution gene(s). Genetically he could very well be buckskin, bay dun, dunskin, grullo or smoky grullo.

    It's virtually impossible to tell just by looking at him. A DNA test would be necessary to know for sure - especially since his white markings cover up any would-be dun characteristics

    Very striking colt. Love the blue eye!
    We are all inclined to judge ourselves by our ideals; others, by their acts. ~Harold Nicolson



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct. 25, 2005
    Posts
    1,742

    Default Not palomino.......

    could be Grullo or Buckskin. The Grullos I have seen in person are a little "bluer" than this guy...I vote buckskin.



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr. 6, 2010
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    2,084

    Default

    Nother vote for Buckskin and he is very striking.
    Adoring fan of A Fine Romance
    Originally Posted by alicen:
    What serious breeder would think that a horse at that performance level is push button? Even so, that's still a lot of buttons to push.



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec. 13, 1999
    Location
    Greensboro, NC
    Posts
    36,208

    Default

    Given the stage of his foal coat, I'm going with Talia. He could be any of those. Foal coats at this stage can be very, very misleading, especially if the choices are as numerous as here.
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec. 27, 2006
    Posts
    529

    Default

    Here's a great comparison of a grullo (possibly smoky grullo) foal to a buckskin foal.

    http://www.grullablue.com/colors/gru...comparison.jpg

    Very very hard to distinguish between the two.
    We are all inclined to judge ourselves by our ideals; others, by their acts. ~Harold Nicolson



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan. 17, 2010
    Posts
    1,693

    Default

    He appears to be buckskin tobiano, or buckstin-dun tobiano if he has the darker dorsal stripe, IMHO.



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct. 27, 2010
    Location
    Nevada
    Posts
    2,561

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kookicat View Post
    http://www.adhorse.co.uk/horseforsale_35198.html

    He's advertiesed as a grullo, but looks more palomino to me. Sorry for the direct link to the ad- I'm not connected to him in anyway.

    Thanks!
    Black based so not palomino for sure. Has dark eartips/edges, darker tail center, some possible face masking so probably has dun genetics....sire is smokey grullo so he could be dun (black, agouti, dun), dunskin (black, agouti, dun, cream), grullo (black, dun) or smokey grullo (black, dun, cream). I had a nice silver grulla filly that went positively pale dun looking in winter hair....and platinum silvery in summer. Foal coats are hard to tell what they will shed out...he is dark around his eyes though so guessing he may well be grullo/smokey grullo.



  9. #9
    Chapelfarmstud Guest

    Default

    I'm the owner of Gabriel's Ghost, the sire of the colt. I saw the colt when he was 4 days old and it was difficult to tell what colour he would shed out. He looked very similar to his sire at that age and my guess was that he would be grullo. He has the dun factor for sure, and is not palomino or buckskin.
    The owner has not had him tested, but in those photos he appears to have shed out lighter that his sire. I would therefore say he is dun tobiano rather than grullo, although he may have turned darker by now!



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec. 27, 2006
    Posts
    529

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Chapelfarmstud View Post
    I'm the owner of Gabriel's Ghost, the sire of the colt. I saw the colt when he was 4 days old and it was difficult to tell what colour he would shed out. He looked very similar to his sire at that age and my guess was that he would be grullo. He has the dun factor for sure, and is not palomino or buckskin.
    The owner has not had him tested, but in those photos he appears to have shed out lighter that his sire. I would therefore say he is dun tobiano rather than grullo, although he may have turned darker by now!
    Out of curiousity - what kind of dun factor does he exhibit? It looks to me like any possible leg or dorsal stripes are covered up by his white markings.

    He reminds me of a broodmare of mine. She has a very caramel toned coat - very similar to this colt's. She is a silver buckskin but she also carries the sooty gene. I am wondering if this colt has the sooty gene at work too. Sooty can mimic dun factors pretty darn well. Especially the ear tips, face webbing and dorsal stripe. (My mare was actually misregistered as a dun because of her dark countershading which perfectly mimicked a dun dorsal stripe.)

    VERY beautiful colt BTW. Congratulations to you and your stallion!
    We are all inclined to judge ourselves by our ideals; others, by their acts. ~Harold Nicolson



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Oct. 27, 2010
    Location
    Nevada
    Posts
    2,561

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TaliaCristianna View Post
    Out of curiousity - what kind of dun factor does he exhibit? It looks to me like any possible leg or dorsal stripes are covered up by his white markings.

    Other photos of him do show what appears to be possible leg bars or at least darkening of the leg above the knee and the lower leg white. He also has a faint bar across the base of his ears as well as the very tip of the ears being light while the edges are darker. And in one other photo you can see that his tail has lighter coloring to each side and darker down the center...all suggestive of dun even though the dorsal stripe area isn't visible.



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jun. 4, 2002
    Location
    Suffolk, VA
    Posts
    16,684

    Default

    I'd call that a dun more than a grulla. The distinction is more in shade...a grulla being more gray/mouse colored and a dun more tan/brown in shade. It all really has to do with base color.

    I would stay he is dun factor though looking at his head and the countershading.



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Sep. 14, 2004
    Location
    Eastern Kansas
    Posts
    1,159

    Default

    Well, pics can certainly be deceiving...and it depends on the time of year, lighting, camera, etc. If you go just by his pics, he looks way more dun/buckskin than grullo - more golden than mousey or smoky. However, that's what I thought by the sale ad for this grullo weanling...
    http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/a...g?t=1296311187...taken mid-to-late summer.

    This is what he looked like the beginning of October (yes, I bought him. )
    http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/a...g?t=1296311187 http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/a...g?t=1296311187 ...and he's darker yet with his full winter coat.
    Last edited by KSAQHA; Jan. 29, 2011 at 03:18 PM. Reason: spelling
    Is it me or do 99.9% of cowboys just look better with their hats on?
    <><



  14. #14

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KSAQHA View Post
    Well, pics can certainly be deceving...and it depends on the time of year, lighting, camera, etc. If you go just by his pics, he looks way more dun/buckskin than grullo - more golden than mousey or smoky. However, thats' what I thought by the sale ad for this grullo weanling...
    http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/a...g?t=1296311187...taken mid-to-late summer.

    This is what he looked like the beginning of October (yes, I bought him. )
    http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/a...g?t=1296311187 http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/a...g?t=1296311187 ...and he's darker yet with his full winter coat.
    He's very cute, whatever color he is!
    www.heartofgoldfarm.com

    RIP "Rio" (BW-Clarion) 2000-2009. Bright Spirit, Brave Heart, Loving Soul. I'll love and miss you forever.



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Dec. 27, 2006
    Posts
    529

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by coloredcowhorse View Post
    Other photos of him do show what appears to be possible leg bars or at least darkening of the leg above the knee and the lower leg white. .
    It is impossible to distinguish any actual barring from the one photo where we see a portion of his upper leg. A darkened leg is only suggestive of the fact that he is black-based - which is obvious based off of the ears.

    Quote Originally Posted by coloredcowhorse View Post
    He also has a faint bar across the base of his ears as well as the very tip of the ears being light while the edges are darker. .
    After saving the photo to my desktop and zooming in I can honestly say I don't see a true bar across the ears. At least not yet. It just looks like his lighter foal coat shedding out to a more sooty tone. Plus it is not unusual for some buckskins to have a darker shade at the base of their ear.

    http://www.grullablue.com/colors/foa...widedorsal.jpg

    Quote Originally Posted by coloredcowhorse View Post
    And in one other photo you can see that his tail has lighter coloring to each side and darker down the center...all suggestive of dun even though the dorsal stripe area isn't visible.
    Many non-dun black-based foals are born with heavily frosted tails.

    http://www.threedayranch.com/images/...inColt_014.JPG

    http://www.grandeislefarm.com/saleHorses/Beau7.jpg

    http://tajuperformancearabians.webs.com/miashow1.jpg

    Most shed out but some keep the light tail forever.

    Please know that I'm just being the devil's advocate here. I just want people to keep in mind the fact that for many colors - especially dilute colors - often times the ONLY way to know the truth is to test.

    Honestly if I had to guess how this colt would test I would say sooty dunskin. (If there was a test for sooty that is.) It's not because I SEE obvious traits for that color - it's just a feeling based off of experience.
    We are all inclined to judge ourselves by our ideals; others, by their acts. ~Harold Nicolson



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Oct. 27, 2010
    Location
    Nevada
    Posts
    2,561

    Default

    IME there's a distinct difference between cream dilute color (in this case buckskin has been suggested) and dun dilutes (dun in this case). The cream dilutes are, to my eye, a clearer color while the dun dilutes have a more "milky" tone to them...flatter and with less depth to them. Not sure how to further explain that.

    There are additional photos on the stallion owner's website...

    His sire is double HZ (black and tobiano) and is grullo so has no agouti gene (necessary for dun or buckskin). While it is possible he got an agouti from his dam it is equally possible he did not. So...50/50 chance of being dun or grullo. Have seen a ton of grullo foals with a breeder in Fallon, NV and foals are often this color until they shed out the spring of yearling year. I had one that went buttermilk colored in her winter coat but was platinum/silver grulla in summer hair. Dun breeders tell me (and have shown a LOT of photos) of dun factored foals (as opposed to cream dilutes) showing faint bars at the base of the ears as well as the very tip of the ears often being very light (even cream colored) whereas buckskin foals don't have the light tip to the ear (it is often very small....just a few hairs in some cases but almost always there in dun factored foals). The leg bars on dun factored foals often come higher up on the foreleg than would the dark coloring from the black leg points on a buckskin foal...they often extend up into the lighter coat color (and sometimes change color, esp in dun foals, to a darker tone of the body hair rather than staying black...ie....a grullo foal would have black leg bars up into the "gray" area of the leg while a dun foal might well have dark red/brown bars in the foreleg and black up to about the knee level). I had a number of dun factored tobiano Paint foals sired by a red dun tobiano I had for a number of years...I could always tell the ear bars and leg bars were there even in foal coats. I also had a palomino that sired buckskins routinely...never had a problem telling the difference in foal coat colors/markings between those that were cream dilutes and those that were dun factored.

    Agree that simple solution would be testing....agouti/cream...if he's Aa he's dun, if aa he's grullo. Cream would tell if he's a smokey grullo or a dunskin (or not).



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Dec. 27, 2006
    Posts
    529

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by coloredcowhorse View Post
    IME there's a distinct difference between cream dilute color (in this case buckskin has been suggested) and dun dilutes (dun in this case). The cream dilutes are, to my eye, a clearer color while the dun dilutes have a more "milky" tone to them...flatter and with less depth to them. Not sure how to further explain that. )
    Yes, I do know what you mean. I'm sure the APHA felt the same way when they registered this mare as dun:

    http://share.shutterfly.com/share/re...AaNmrhk2cuGbi4

    http://share.shutterfly.com/share/re...AaNmrhk2cuGbkg

    This particular mare has very distinct countershading that perfectly mimics a dorsal stripe.

    She also does not have a dun parent, has never produced a dun foal (out of 8) and was DNA tested Ee Aa nCr nZ.

    She is also VERY similar to the colt in question with regards to the actual shade and tone of coat.

    I still am leaning towards dunskin with this guy. I wouldn't bet against smoky grulla but think dunskin is more likely. With all that being said, I absolutely would not eliminate "just" buckskin as an option. I think that is a very real possibility and wouldn't bet money on it either way.

    Also, the colt in question's dam is a bay tobiano based off of the ad description, so agouti is definitely a possibility for him.
    We are all inclined to judge ourselves by our ideals; others, by their acts. ~Harold Nicolson



  18. #18
    Join Date
    Oct. 27, 2010
    Location
    Nevada
    Posts
    2,561

    Default

    [QUOTE=TaliaCristianna;5394018]Yes, I do know what you mean. I'm sure the APHA felt the same way when they registered this mare as dun:



    AQHA and APHA both have some serious problems in registering horses correctly in terms of colors. Shoot, APHA registers max sabino horses as solids 'cause they can't tell what pattern they are!! (and I'm not at all sure they know anything about dominant white yet!).

    Dun and buckskin for years with AQHA were virtually interchangable with people describing their dun horses as "line-back" buckskins for instance. Neither organization recognizes (at least in terms of color definitions) those horses carrying both dun genetics and cream dilutions. Never try to discuss champagne with them, silver dapple is a mystery and pearl is an entirely different world. Try combining some of those and all you get is confusion on a grand scale. I would LOVE the day they require color testing and put it ON the papers... stop some of their non-sense. Throw in all the oddball names people come up with for various colors and it gets even weirder (had a gal try to sell me a "gray dun" once upon a time...I checked pedigree and figured she was probably grulla.. tried talking with the seller about this and was told I knew nothing...OK...she WAS grulla and I bought her and resold in a couple years for a lot more than I paid...and the original seller climbed all over me for putting her out there as a grulla... everyone KNEW that was a GRAY DUN!!)



  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jun. 4, 2002
    Location
    Suffolk, VA
    Posts
    16,684

    Default

    Looking at that second set of pics, I agree he may be a grulla. I certainly don't think he's a buckskin. I see too much dun factor in him in the countershading. Sometimes, unless you can DNA test or breed an animal and see the results, you will never know for certain.

    One mare I own is solid white with two blue eyes..pink skin but for a few dark spots on her neck and chest. She produced a bay paint, another white, (both to a bay stallion), a blue roan to a red dun roan stallion, a dun roan to a dun roan stallion, a buckskin dun (dunskin) filly to a stallion who had both genes for cream and dun, and finally we got a dun colt out of her. The stallion was a bay so the dun HAD to be coming from her. I would have never known otherwise...so she's a dun factor under all that white and I know she's not a red based from previous crosses.

    She's also produced loud frame overos as well as splash. It is a crapshoot anytime you breed her what is going to pop out. Last year was a dun warbonnet filly who faded to all white. She has two brown eyes (to my relief). No surprises from her this year, she's open and not bred back.

    Color genetics are fun. I enjoy puzzling out what foals will shed out like but I have found that sometimes you just are not sure until the Spring of their yearling year what exactly you have got.



  20. #20
    Join Date
    Dec. 27, 2006
    Posts
    529

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by coloredcowhorse View Post
    AQHA and APHA both have some serious problems in registering horses correctly in terms of colors. Shoot, APHA registers max sabino horses as solids 'cause they can't tell what pattern they are!! (and I'm not at all sure they know anything about dominant white yet!).

    Dun and buckskin for years with AQHA were virtually interchangable with people describing their dun horses as "line-back" buckskins for instance. Neither organization recognizes (at least in terms of color definitions) those horses carrying both dun genetics and cream dilutions. Never try to discuss champagne with them, silver dapple is a mystery and pearl is an entirely different world. Try combining some of those and all you get is confusion on a grand scale. I would LOVE the day they require color testing and put it ON the papers... stop some of their non-sense. Throw in all the oddball names people come up with for various colors and it gets even weirder (had a gal try to sell me a "gray dun" once upon a time...I checked pedigree and figured she was probably grulla.. tried talking with the seller about this and was told I knew nothing...OK...she WAS grulla and I bought her and resold in a couple years for a lot more than I paid...and the original seller climbed all over me for putting her out there as a grulla... everyone KNEW that was a GRAY DUN!!)
    LOL! I have seen bay horses being marketed as sorrel with black points before...

    Oh, and grays are actually silver dapples. I see that one A LOT!

    I agree that APHA has no clue what the heck they are talking about when it comes to colors. I think it's HILARIOUS that they choose to register max sabino horses as breeding stock because they have TOO much white. That just boggles my mind! It doesn't matter if you have a DNA test proving the horse's base color. They won't even note that information on the papers.

    That mare of mine was actually registered as a buckskin when she was a foal. Then her former owner had her papers changed to dun. Now I have a DNA test proving that she is a silver buckskin but they will not update her papers to say so. They were closer the first time around!

    You would think that a breed that is "known" for color would be a champion for DNA color testing. That's just not the case though!
    We are all inclined to judge ourselves by our ideals; others, by their acts. ~Harold Nicolson



Similar Threads

  1. Is this colour even possible...?
    By Ibex in forum Sport Horse Breeding
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: Apr. 27, 2013, 12:45 PM
  2. Help with foal colour?
    By SassyLass in forum Sport Horse Breeding
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: Oct. 16, 2012, 04:38 PM
  3. Just for fun: what colour?
    By stolensilver in forum Sport Horse Breeding
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: Apr. 21, 2012, 10:08 AM
  4. What colour...
    By Made In Canada in forum Hunter/Jumper
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: Apr. 23, 2010, 05:12 AM
  5. What colour is this colt going to be???
    By greyponies in forum Sport Horse Breeding
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: Jun. 16, 2009, 08:48 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •