Every thread Seraph posts on become all about her and her horse.
Intact male horses have a difficult life in the modern world. Their horomonal makeup drives them towards behaviour that creates anxiety for themselves and those around them. If breeding doesn't interest you, you should give serious consideration to gelding your horse.
Seraph, you are handling these very unpleasant comments extremely well. You have every right to defend your pride and joy! I also have not read a single comment from you that leads me to think that you are promoting him or trying to encourage mare owners on this bb to breed to him.
However I question why you insist on keeping him a stallon. Take a look at the stallions out there. I can breed to nearly any stallion in the world today. Thousands of extremely well bred stallions of outstanding, proven performance bloodlines are out there competing at the highest levels. If your stallion turns out to be a great jumper, I still would never breed to him.
Also I do recall you seeking advice a few weeks ago. You do not seem qualified to train or stand a stallion. You could have a lot of fun with him but keeping him a stallion simply because you want to is just not right.
P.S Seriously think about WHY this horse NEEDS to be a stallion.
Seraph, you have received lots of honest advice, and your disregard for the opinions you sought when asking on the Dressage Forum if your stallion was a "dressage prospect" leave me unsympathetic. He is not sporthorse stallion material, not even if he makes it to "upper level jumpers." You say several times that you plan on breeding him. The moment you decided this, his promotion as a future sire starts. The publicity here has not been good for stallion or owner, and folks have long memories.
I strongly disagree with your conformation advice, but have not the time to argue; I beat my head against the wall plenty in real life. I feel this is a common sentiment; it's just not worth it to argue as you selectively ignore anyone who questions or disagrees, or folks would jump on your Conformation critique thread. How do you know your critiques are "above and beyond accurate?" You need to hear that from someone who has more experience than you do.
All I can do is wish you luck, hope you find the sense to not breed him, and the wisdom to consider the opinions you asked from those with actual sporthorse competition/breeding/approval experience.
I am sorry, but I HAVE to comment here. I hadn't read these threads and browsed through them and looked at that copper stallion. THIS she says looks like Baloubet????? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...n_confused.gif Where can I find the kind of glasses she has to make my arthritic welsh pony look like Royal Kaliber????
SERAPH, if there's one thing I agree with in terms of what your critiquers have said, it's that you SHOULD go out and free-jump your stallion. Find someone to trailer you to a barn with an arena and jumps, and jump him. I am as confident as you are that he will soar over the fences.
I am still kicking myslf for not having pictures of my last free-jumping session with my mare. A registered Saddlebred, she stands a hair under 15.2 hh. She soared over a WIDE oxer that I measured (not guesstimated) at 4'2 inches. With room to spare. With her knees tucked under her chin and her tail flagged (there had to be SOME indication of her breed there.. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c.../icon_wink.gif
Everyone SHOULD love their horse. I loved my Chincoteague pony from the moment I saw her at the Pony Auction to the day I had her put down at age 31. That love did not make me blind as a bat to her faults and limits. I certianly never held her up as the next best thing to Rox Dene, Touch of Class or Bally Cor.
Not even as an April Fool's joke or a Halloween prank.
Seraph's horse if fortunate to have an owner who adores him.
Friendship is Love without his wings
"If you would have only one day to live, you should spend at least half of it in the saddle."
Totally different board there, and not for under 18's so it doesnt need general airing over here.
Aim 2003/2004: National High points for appaloosa show jumping!
If a car passes me when I\'m on a horse, I always think: if I were in that car and saw me, I would wish I was me. Wistful children\'s faces, staring out of the back window, agree - Monica Dickens
I read a bit of the linked thread, http://pub179.ezboard.com/fthetackro...tart=1&stop=20 I have a few questions: who is the host of the board… and why did you call it to our attention? I only read the first page or so... but it goes on for 8 pages... it's not that interesting... could you just tell us what's up?
[This message was edited by Cartier on Sep. 08, 2003 at 07:18 AM.]
That topic, like this one, veered from the original question.
This thread started out with a wide range of responses and additional questions from knowledgable people. Here are a couple of links to research/data that support the heritability of jumping, at least through the sire side.
I don't know if such data has been collected on other specific breeds but am still investigating. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...icon_smile.gif Hopefully, this information will be available soon through the efforts of the PHR and USAEq. Got to love the internet.
The ASB is a beautiful and versital breed that has been developed over the years towards a particular goal. That is what the warmblood registries are doing, selective breeding with emphasis on performance towards a certian goal. ASB History
From the link above:<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Despite many notable exceptions, the trend for this remarkable animal became the show ring. He was dubbed “peacock of the show ring”, which he undoubtedly is, but this is used by detractors of the American Saddle Horse to indicate he is good for little else.
People who knew and loved Saddlebreds knew this was wrong, but little was done about it until 1957, when Miss Irene Zane, formerly manager of Sunnyslope Farm, Scott City, Kans., one of the great show stables of the nation, founded the American Saddlebred Pleasure Horse Association.
While most admirers of the Saddlebred love the beautiful show horses, they are now seeking to re-establish his worth as a pleasure and using animal. After all, that is how the breed was developed.
Other breeds, notably the Tennessee Walking Horse, which evolved essentially from Saddlebreds and Standardbreds, Morgans, and Arabians try to emulate them in the show ring, but none can compare.
On the other hand, American Saddlebreds have been successful jumpers, cow horses, and if conditioned and trained properly, they are capable of almost any task they are asked to perform.
Friendship is Love without his wings
[This message was edited by Everythingbutwings on Sep. 08, 2003 at 07:29 AM.]
"If you would have only one day to live, you should spend at least half of it in the saddle."
I'm disappointed this thread (interesting to me because I focus on jumpers) that started out so well has degenerated to the trite and mundane. Can we get back to it or will somebody please put this thread out of its misery?
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The Top Eventing Sires of International Horses 1990-1995 - By Paul Van Oers, Dirk Zagers and Chris Van Dam of B.C.M., The Netherlands
(Taken from - "Stallions - The Leading Competition Sires of Great Britain and Ireland" by Hugh McMahon)
Breeding horses specifically for eventing has less tradition than breeding jumping or dressage horses. In the past the most important aspect was the horse's ability to jump over fences, walls, hedges and other such natural obstacles. With a few exceptions, nobody was interested in the sires or breeding history of their horses. Therefore, it was always a difficult job to identify the heredity of event horses. However, in the last few years event riders have become more interested in genetics and information concerning the origin of their horses.
In total 2183 horses have accumulated points over the last years. Of these horses, 72.2% of the first 1000, 72.7% of the first 500 horses and 82.8% of the first 250 horses have been identified.
The most well-known and successful breeder of event horses is undoubtedly Sam Barr from Hartpury, Gloucestershire (Great Britain). Dozens of eventing horses with the prefix Welton have competed and still compete at international level. And not even all horses bred by Sam Barr bear the prefix Welton. At the 1995 European Champions in Pratoni del Vivaro, Italy, three horses bred by Sam Barr competed. Among them, the European Champion Welton Romance.
Welton Louis (in third place in the series ranking) and Welton Crakerjack (in sixth place) are both sired by Welton Gameful (v. Game Prince) and bred by Sam Barr. Welton Gameful is also the sire of Sam Barr's ride at the 1984 Burghley Horse Trials, where he made his debut at the age of 64.
Welton Louis has eight offspring in the rankings and his place, in large part, is due to the 1995 European Champion Welton Romance, Welton Fairgame and Welton Chit Chat. The latter won Bramham in 1991 with Ginny Leng and with Santiago Centenera placed at the 1993 European Champions in Achselschwang, Germany. More than 20 event horses sired by the bav Welton Louis compete or have competeo in international three-day events.
Welton Crackerjack with seven progeny in the rankings takes sixth place with such well known offspring as Welton Houdini, Just A Cracker and Welton Comedian. The most successful descendants are Welton Houdini (winner of the 1993 Badminton Horse Trials with Ginny Leng) and Welton Greylog (winner of the 1991 Burghley Horse Trials with Mark Todd).
Welton Gazelle, the dam of Marie Christine Duroy's ride Summersono. Brittany Ferries, who took 14th place at the 1994 World Equestrian Games (and Badminto ighth at n in 1995), is sired b Welton Gameful too.
Great Britain and Ireland provide more than 40% of the sires in the top 100. English sires Nickel King xx (first place), sire of King William, Welton Louis (third), Garnered xx (fifth), sire of Get Smart xx, Welton Crackerjack (sixth), Just A Monarch xx (seventh), sire of Just An Ace, and Grey Ghost xx (tenth) dominate the top ten of eventing sires.
Of the top ten four non-British sires, the Polish Thoroughbred Polonez, sire of Piia Pantsu's ride Cyna, takes second place. New Zealand's Mr Leigh (fourth) is sire of World Champion Vaughn Jefferis' Bounce, while Domherr owes his eighth place to Olympic champion Matt Ryan's 18-year-old Kibah Tic Toe, runner-up at Badminton in 1995. In ninth place we find a rarely seen country of origin - South Africa. Hawaii xx, sire of Dorothy Trapp's silver medallist at the Hague, Molokai, who was exproted to the USA later.
Ireland is not represented in the top 10 but with sires like Beau Charmeur xx, Carnival Night xx, Sky Boy xx, Gipfel xx, Pennistone xx, Ozymandias xx, Ideal Water xx, Soudno xx and Bassompierre xx in the top of the rankings, Ireland can be considered the second best producer of event horses.
Country of Origin of the Sires in the Top One Hundred
In the top one hundred there is one sire with seven offspring in the rankings (Welton Crackerjack), three sires with eight (Welton Louis, Sky Boy xx and Babamist xx) and two sires with ten (Master Spiritus xx and Carnival Night xx).
Due to the results of Elektra Spiritus xx and Master Craftsman xx, Master Spiritus takes 1 Ith place. Master Craftsman is surely Master Spiritus' most successful descendant. With Ginny Leng he was placed first (1989), second (1992) and third (1988) at the Badminton Horse Trials. In 1988 he won an individual bronze medal for Ginny Leng and a silver team medal for Great Britain at the Olympic Games. A year later he becameEuropean Champion at the 1989Championships at Burghley and took second place with the British team.The Irish Thoroughbreds Carnival Night and Sky Boy are ranked 15th and 16th respectively while best American sire is Babamist xx in 25th place.
Despite the fact that the Thoroughbred Ben Faerie only takes place 129 in the sire rankings, he is one of the most influential sires in the British breeding industry. The 28 year old Ben Faeric is still alive and through his children and grandchildren is represented through all levels of intema- tional three-day eventing. Ben Faerie has eight offspring in the rankings, among them, Cornish Fear xx, Fairy Diadem and Benbury). But his best direct descendants have been retired. The most famous are Priceless and Night Cap 11, both ridden by Ginny Leng.
Priceless won in total eight medals at international championships: four gold team medals (1981 and 1985 European Champions and the 1982 and 1986 World Championships), one silver team medal (1984 Olympic Games), two individual gold medals (1985 European Championships and 1986 World Championships) and one individual bronze medal (1984 Olympic Games). Night Cap 11 won two gold medals, an individual at the 1986 Alternative World Championships in Bialy Bor (Poland) and a team gold at the 1987 European Championships in Luhmühien (Germany).
Number of Progeny of the Hundred Sires in the Top One Hundred
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The Top Ten Jumping Sires of International Horses 1990-95
(Taken from - "Stallions - The Leading Competition Sires of Great Britain and Ireland" by Hugh McMahon)
1. RAMIRO Z
The life story of the recently deceased Holstein progenitor was covered by almost every magazine. Bred by Baron von Nagel, this grandson of Ramzes x encountered problems at first with stallion selection committees which did not like his looks. But as his magnificent sport career under Fritz Ligges unrolled, he was quickly rehabilitated in the eyes of the breeders, specifically when Ramiro's first products such as Fatinitza under Thomas Frühmann easily soared to the top of the sport.
Ramiro's hereditary powers seem to be directly derived from his dam, the Cottage Son xx daughter Valine, as his sire Raimond did not seem to cause any ripples in the genetic pond of sport horse breeding. Female influence plays a large role in Ramiro's breeding, for not only was his dam Valine an excellent showjumping horse, but also his better products are often mares, and that's where his sire Raimond proves his value after all, for he produced several of Holstein's most useful dams such as that of Lugana 11 (Stephan Lauber, Paul Estermann) and Operette La Silla (Jan Tops). The best Ramiro offspring are combinations with Almé, Gotthard, Ramzes x and Thoroughbred lineages.
2. JALISCO B
This Almé son is generated by one of the best performance lineages in France. The Furioso xx daughter Tanagra produced, besides Jalisco B, also Danoso (v. Night & Day xx) who was one of the best horses in the French team in the seventies under Daniel Constant. Night & Day xx also sired Geisha N, who jumped in the international sport with Erie Navet, and continued her career as Janou Tissot Levebre's broodmare, generating, amongst others, the licensed stallion Kissovo.
The breeding career of Jalisco B was placed in the able hands of Fernand Leredde and it is due to his efforts that the breeders brought suitable matches to this stallion right from the beginning. Jalisco B was a rather heavy horse with a lot of power but no fast reflexes, which made him an ideal partner for for high-blooded mares which could make split-second decisions.
If Ramiro's daughters proved more successful in the sport then so did Jalisco B's sons. That does not mean that Jalisco B's daughters were not fine broodmares. Kobalt ridden by Jan Vinckler and Valeska Forever are products of Jalisco B daughters. The number of his licensed sons featuring in the sport is remarkable: Quito de Baussy, Quidam de Revel, Olisco, Papillon Rouge, Quel Type d'Elle, Surcouf de Revel, Sisal de Jalesnes, Vert et Rouge, Qualisco III, Reve d'Elle and Sherif d'Elle are all rearing to go, and follow in their sire's wake.
3. LANDGRAF I
Landgraf I is probably the most proliferous sport horse generator in post-war history, with 113 products jumping at S-level and 26 in the WBCSH rankings. And his list is growing every year.
Landgraf 1 daughters have also proved their value, and guarantee the future of Landgraf I from their side. They produced horses like Classic Touch, Come On, Big Time and Athletico. Landgraf I sons present a different picture. Although many of them have been licensed, they did not manage to distinguish themselves in breeding, with the notable exceptions of Libero H, Landadel and Lotus II.
Interesting fact is that the above mentioned three stallions, as it happens, are not offering their services in Holstein, but in other parts of Germany and Europe. Maybe this is significant, for one often sees stallions more comfortably matched with "foreign" blood outside their breeding area than at "home".
Best Hanoverian jumping upgrader of the past era was, no doubt, the Graphit son Grannus. Licensed by the Oldenburg studbook, he started his simultaneous career in sport and breeding at the Klatte family Stud.
Grannus performed satisfactorily in the sport at S-level, but he was to display some fairly unpopular characteristics in competitions, not unlike other products of his sire Graphit. Graphit is famous for his hereditary jumping potential, but also for offspring with rather complicated characters, and Grannus has been no exception. Grannus' breeding career was not strewn with roses right from the start, as he was definitely not a conformation sire and his children displayed a rather particular style of jumping. The inclination of his products to jump hollow-backed instead of with rounded backs has remained constant, but thanks to their exceptional jumping power, they tackled the highest fences and hardly ever touched a pole. This did not go unnoticed.
When, in a relatively short period of time, Top Gun, still with rider Nick Skelton at the time, Grand Plaisir under Ludger Beerbaum and Impérial with Nelson Pessoa jumped from one success into another, the hunt on Grannus products began in good earnest.
So far his offspring perform at S-level, 13 of them have reached the WBCSH ranking, and Grannus daughters are doing well in breeding. For example, Autogramm, Grace Argentina, For Pleasure and Weihaiwej, are all top-class jumpers from Grannus daughters. We will still have to wait and see about his sons, but Hanover recently licensed a few fine products of Graf Grannus, amongst which was the section champion, which is quite promising.
5. LUGANO VAN LA ROCHE
What initially started as a disappointing competitive sport career, eventually developed into a splendid breeding record. Lugano was purchased by the Deuss brothers in Verden in 1966, who also owned Flugel, another phenomenon in BWP breeding history. Flugel daughters crossed with Lugano proved the match of the era, generating world eminences such as Porche, Pluco, Pico and Egano which won Olympic medals, heavy Grand Prix and championships.
After his "Flugel period", Lugano enthusiastically devoted himself to partners from the lineage of Holstein Cottage Son xx son Codex. Codex was a top-class sport horse producer himself, and it can be no surprise that this combination produced phenomena such as Darco, or the super-fast Isaura vd Helle Also in his female offspring Lugano has done well, as demonstrated by his daughters producing, for example. Forester, Fidelgo, Goliath and Joli Fleur de Lys, Also in his female offspring Lugano has done well, as demonstrated by his daughters producing, for example, Forester, Fidelgo, Goliath and Joli Fleur de Lys, all with good international sport reputations.
6/8. POLYDOR / PILOT
These are two Pilatus sons that have easily proved themselves masters in the sport, yet nevertheless are totally different horses. Polydor descends from the modest Frühlicht, Pilot from the reputable Graphit. The former was well-matched with Aladin daughters, as demonstrated by Sonora La Silla, Padua and Poor Boy, whereas the latter bred well from Direx daughters, who produced horses such as PS Priamos Pierrot, Parodie and Epilot. The first passes on a more temperate character than the hot-headed products of the second.
Polydor's children scored slightly better in the sport than Pilot's, but in breeding Pilot clearly has better results than Polydor who has so far not been able to generate noteworthy sons. The Lukewarm appreciation shown for Polydor sons can first of all be attributed to their rather common appearance and little sensational movements.
7. KING OF DIAMONDS
What Landgraf I is to Holstein, is what Lugano is to the BWP, or Grannus to Hanover. It is also what King of Diamonds means to Ireland. This Irish Draught (in other words an Irish work horse) is Ireland's best representative in the WBCSH ranking with 17 products. Horses such as Special Envoy, Aachen Grand Prix winner with Rodrigo Pessoa, Mill Pearl and Jack of Diamonds, are but a few of this sire's famous products, 25 of which are international sport horses.
Besides an impressive string of licensed stallions such as Diamond Lad, sire of Robert Splaine's Heather Blaze, he also produced very useful daughters such as the dam of Master Maddox, Grand Prix winner for Swiss rider Hansueli Sprunger.
This Anglo-Normand, three-quarters Anglo-Arabain, offers his services as SF in Germany under three different names. The story starts at a KWPN stallion selection, where the famous French stallion producer Alfred Levebre presented the Selle Francais Gordios, for that is what this horse is really called.
Gordios was not approved and was sold there and then to the equally well-known Oldenburg stallion-owner George Vorwerk, who renamed the stallion Zeus. Why was Vorwerk so interested in this Arlequin x son?
Arlequin x descends on the male side from ton progenitor Matador x and in the female line from the Thoroughbred Le Pot Aux Roses xx, who in turn sired the super performer Quo Vadis, medal winning Olympic ride of Marcel Rozier in Mexico, later multiple French Champion with Marc Houssin.
Zeus' full brother and sister, Figaro and Diablesse, were sparkling in the French jumping sport at that time, and last but not least, the SF Talisman is sire of Zeus' grand dam and can also be found in the female lineage of Furioso 11, another star of the Vorwerk studfarm.
Zeus produced some striking individuals with potential in his first seasons, of which Zampano, Play Back and Zigeuner are some successful examples.Therefore it did not take the KWPN long to retrieve Gordios and license him as Nurzeus. In spite of carrying a fair dash of Thoroughbred blood, he can be successfully combined with more, as demonstrated by Playback (dam's sire More Magic xx), Czar (dam's sire Lucius xx), Lonesome (dam's sire Furioso II) or Sapphira (dam's sire Solaris xx).
Lord is not only interesting because of his Ladykiller xx background, but also because his Cottage Son xx ancestry. That we find also these two Thoroughbreds elsewhere in the top-ten of the five-year WBCSH ranking, in Landgraf 1 (by Ladykiller xx) and Ramiro (dam's sire Cottage Son xx), can be no coincidence.
Lord started his career one year after Landgraf I was licensed by Holstein. Lord, himself a skillful jumper, gained stardom overnight, when a young product called Livius made such fantastic leaps in the Berlin Grand Prix that his rider Peter Luther could hardly stay in the saddle. A star was born in the Deutschlandhalle, but also in the stallion station of the Holsteiner Verband. Later, more products found their way into the WBCSH ranking, such as Lugana II, helping the Swiss team to their title of European Champions at Gijon and their team medal at the World Equestrian Games in The Hague.
Some other super sport horses produced by Lord are Top Speed, Lusius and Tovia. Lord supplied a total of 14 offspring to this five-year WBCSH ranking. His better products come from Ramzes x, Cor de la Bryere and Wahnfried lineages, but he is also well matched with Thoroughbred blood. As producer of dams of licensed stallions, Lord earned his reputation with Amadeus, Classic Dream, and specifically, Freestyle, winner of the 1995 Aachen Grand Prix.
I ride dressage. I bought my mare because of her temprament and her movement. When I got her mare test results, I was surprised to see she got 9's for jumping. Upon researching her bloodlines abit I found her sire consistantly produce horses who loff to jump. She is by Dynamo. If she is really good, I let her jump alittle http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c.../icon_wink.gif