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  1. #1
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    Default sporthorse TB sires

    does anyone know of any Thoroughbreds that are Sporthorse sires but also proven at the track or racehorse sires?I am trying to help out a friend who wants to breed a Thoroughbred mare.She wants to use the foal that results as an event prospect, (the mare has raced but didn't do a whole lot and she has decent conformation)...So far my friend is looking into Songandaprayer,and The White Fox..does anyone know anything about those sires?



  2. #2
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    Wouldnt some of Denny Emerson's stallions fall into that category? I seem to recall one or maybe more of his stallions had a very respectable race career before standing at stud for Sport Horses as well ...



  3. #3
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    Does she want a registered TB foal? If so the breeding will have to be live cover. If she wants LC it helps to know what part of the country she is looking in.
    It is also helpful to know something about what tempement she is willing to deal with. This is a Bold Ruler/Nasrullah line question. The BRs tend to be very good athletes......bold and a good jump.........but more forward and sensitive...where some other bloodlines are not as "hot". Alydar lines in general put a super jump on a horse. Pleasant Colony lines put a good jump with a more level head on a horse.



  4. #4
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    Gaaah, I had a nice long post and it got "eaten"
    Short version: I don't like SongAndAPrayer on paper. Raise A Native is a mixed blessing of jump talent (a la Alydar) and front leg weakness issues......so I don't like seeing the RAN linebred. SOME of the Mr P lines are better than others for better/stronger front legs but Unbridleds Song is not one of them.
    The White Fox: have not seen him move so can't judge him on that. For sporthhorses his damside is strong. His sire side we had old Mr. P and his dicey legs again but fortunately this horse is not LINE bred to RAN......so just one in there is much better. Pioneering also has the advantage of having Crimson Satan on his damline....CS is a good line for soundness improvement. Racing success and sporthorse ability are often mutually exclusive........so on pedigree for the 2 you mentioned I would take The White Fox.
    I would go with neither if the mare in question is from RAN lines though. In that case look elsewhere all together.



  5. #5
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    The mare needs to be matched as much as finding a stallion that meets your criteria. I'm not sure why the stallion needs a race record, but that is certainly up to the owner. So, more information about the mare would be a good place to start.
    PennyG



  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by TKR View Post
    The mare needs to be matched as much as finding a stallion that meets your criteria. I'm not sure why the stallion needs a race record, but that is certainly up to the owner. So, more information about the mare would be a good place to start.
    PennyG
    Yes, and I think SongandaPrayer's stud fee is upwards of $10,000. The White Fox is less expensive but still probably higher than most Sporthorse stallions.
    If producing a racing prospect is the criteria then perhaps ask in the Racing forum?



  7. #7
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    For horses being both race and sport proven:mostly what I know are PA area horses.
    Innkeeper http://www.pedigreequery.com/innkeeper
    comes to mind and Roanoke http://www.pedigreequery.com/roanoke2
    (who was in PA but moved to the midwest). Sir Juli Go http://www.pedigreequery.com/sir+juli+go
    was a successful race horse turned riding horse/eventer. Harry The Hat http://www.pedigreequery.com/harry+the+hat
    produces both runners and eventers.
    Rock Point http://www.pedigreequery.com/rock+point
    is/was......I think he might be retired now.



  8. #8
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    I work at the thoroughbred sales every year, and I have handled quite a few songandaprayer foals. They are a bit crazy in the head and most of them do not have the straightest legs. They are usually flashy, but a lot of them are pretty fine boned as well! If you want an eventing stallion, why not check out Sea Accounts
    http://www.debracysporthorses.com/De..._Accounts.html

    He's well bred and proven in eventing.



  9. #9
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    I don't know about his success at the track, but A Fine Romance is a favourite with breeders on this board and has produced performance sport horses.



  10. #10
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    From a thread posted on the Racing forum, the OP's friend has some cash to spend - she was (is?) interested in Unbridled's Song... so the 10k+ fee doesn't appear to be an issue

    Some of the TB stallions on my shortlist are (for eventers):

    A Fine Romance
    Yellow Creek
    Coconut Grove
    Salute The Truth
    Triple Twist

    If I was to be shopping in the same price range as the OP's friend and looking at racing sires who crossover nicely into the eventing worls, well.... The list would be longer
    -Jessica



  11. #11
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  12. #12
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    [quote=AppJumpr08;4582796]From a thread posted on the Racing forum, the OP's friend has some cash to spend - she was (is?) interested in Unbridled's Song... so the 10k+ fee doesn't appear to be an issue

    /quote]

    Umm, big difference between Songandaprayer and Unbridleds Song. Songandaprayer's stud fee was 22k last yr. and Unbridled's Song was 150k. I'd like to know if the OP's friend truly knows this, since I can't imagine anyone who had that kind of money to breed would even mention The White Fox in the same breath. I really don't mean that offensively, but there's just no comparison.
    "Everyone will start to cheer, when you put on your sailin shoes"-Lowell George

    What's the status on Tuco?



  13. #13
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    Ok, I should have looked at their thread on the racing forum b4 I even commented here. If 8bells and her "friend" are really serious (which I doubt), I'm going to need them to contact me with full names so I can submit them for the next round of Darwin awards.
    "Everyone will start to cheer, when you put on your sailin shoes"-Lowell George

    What's the status on Tuco?



  14. #14
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    If the OP is serious there IS the whole issue of studfees. Not too many race stallions stand at sporthorse fees. A few do.......but not many. And likely not your grade 1 winners/producers.
    It looks like Songandaprayer is currently at 12,500........but still well past what an eventer stallion will go for. His right front knee does not look so hot either
    http://www.bloodhorse.com/stallion-r...n=singlesearch
    The White Fox
    http://www.hopewellfarm.com/white-fox.shtml
    is standing at 3,500........which will get you a TOP proven sporthorse stallion. For 3,500 you don't even get a confo photo on their site though......

    Personally if I was shopping with a 5 figure budget for a TB stallion I would take a Pleasant Colony son in the 10K range (though Roanoke stood for about 5K) and Not For Love at 20K!
    http://www.bloodhorse.com/stallion-r...30&origin=link
    Last edited by camohn; Dec. 28, 2009 at 08:13 PM.



  15. #15
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    Agreeing with what everyone has said about the need to match the mare to the stallion, as well as needing to know the mare's actual pedigree & conformational strengthes & weaknesses to make good suggestions, etc.

    Like others, I'm not sure why the stallion needs to have had a race record, but thanks to camohn, for mentioning our stallion, Sir Juli Go, who proved his soundness on the track with 135 starts, an extremely rare feat in modern racing.

    Also, while I have not personally seen The White Fox, I have worked with one of his 2009 babies, and am very impressed with this colt in person, both by his conformation & temperament (sorry I can't help with a picture of the stallion himself - the best I can do is a picture of one of his sons):

    http://www.xanthus-farm.com/xanthus_...&tt=27&hh=1293

    If you cruise the Xanthus Farm website, you'll also find a picture of the white colt's dam.

    One other suggestion, if a succesful racehorse is a criteria for picking the sire - for an event horse, might I suggest you also look for a horse who had or whose progeny have had success in races over a mile? You probably don't want a successful sprinter for this particular sport.
    Hidden Echo Farm, Carlisle, PA -- home of JC palomino sire Canadian Kid (1990 - 2013) & AQHA sire Lark's Favorite, son of Rugged Lark.



  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by KBEquine View Post

    One other suggestion, if a succesful racehorse is a criteria for picking the sire - for an event horse, might I suggest you also look for a horse who had or whose progeny have had success in races over a mile? You probably don't want a successful sprinter for this particular sport.
    Also a good point. So many of the current TBs are bred for dirt sprints. Your sporthorses are conformationally better suited to the distance runner types. Turf horses are better yet.........
    I had one little TB mare that was a super jumper. She was usually mistaken for a QH. She was an exception though......generally that is not the ideal. She was a Hoist The Flag bred....and lived up to both the good and the bad that bloodline is known for: athletic and not exactly a sweetheart.



  17. #17
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    Songandaprayer was not, himself, particularly sturdy. Not someone I'd consider seriously as an eventing sire.

    Is your friend dead set on having 100% Thoroughbred? Not that there's a thing in the world wrong with that, but there are a lot of proven eventing sires who aren't full-blooded TB.



  18. #18
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    A few to consider who are good racers themselves and would appear to have promise as sport horse sires.

    1) Roanoke, who has sired successful chasers and eventers. Big guy. In Illinois
    2) Northern Spur, Eclipse winner and turf specialist, but throws small. In New York
    3) French Seventyfive in Oklahoma. Does not produce particularly good racers, but for generational breeding brings a lot to the table.
    4) Cetawayo in Pennsylvania. Just started on his stud career, so doesn't have a lot on the ground. Lovely pedigree. And very sturdy.
    5) Siphon--better for sport than racing, but has produced gorgeous get and has a lovely pedigree.
    6) Earth Colony. Big guy. Another Pleasant Colony son. Primarily marketed for sport.
    7) Not For Love. Mr. P son, lovely horse. Maryland
    8) For a large stud fee, I'd look at Tiznow. He's a successful sire and is one of the few Man O'War studs standing.
    9) Aggadan in Louisiana. Son of Carnivalay. 42 starts, winner. Started his stud career in 2007.
    10) A son of Cox's Ridge. Out of Place stands at Claiborne in Kentucky. He has an almost perfect sport horse pedigree. There are many other Cox's Ridge sons standing all over North America.
    11) Ameri Valay. Son of Carnivalay. Used to be in Maryland, now in Pennsylvania. Sire of Magic Weissner.
    12) A couple of Theatrical sons to look at are Grand Reserve in Virginia and Hap in Indiana. Shakespeare is in Florida for a much higher stud fee, and is La Troienne tail female. If you have a mare who traces back to her, that would be a nice mating. But he seems to have been very fragile, looking at his race record. If the mare doesn't trace to La Troienne, I prefer the dam lines of the other two.
    13) Roberto was an excellent sire of sires and a very good sport horse line. We are now down to his grandsons in the US except for Dynaformer.
    There are lots more less popular stallions with pedigrees that are "better" for sport, turf and chasing than the ones who have been bred for dirt sprints, which are the dominant form of US racing today. Camohn has recommended some very nice older sires like Rock Point.

    14) For pure sport, look at Castle Cove and Fun and Fancy Free, both in Virginia. And A Fine Romance in Ontario. And Triple Twist in West Virginia. None of these are used for racing. Castle Cove is Teddy sire line and is out of the very great Agnes dam line. However, his sire line does tend to produce crooked front legs.
    Also consider Noble Houston, Loyal Tendencies in Georgia and Cor Magnifique, also in Georgia. Mystic Replica and Boy Done Good (Salute the Truth) are full TBs who come from eventing lines.
    Last edited by vineyridge; Dec. 30, 2009 at 02:26 PM.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
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  19. #19
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    I may be confused: If the OP wants a race bred TB to use for eventing why not just purchase a well bred OTTB so you know what you're paying for and save yourself a gazillion dollars and even more uncertainty on a stud fee/mare care/raising a foal to riding age/breaking etc?



  20. #20
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    Clivers, I'd take that even further and suggest that the OP find an OTTB for a song and make it into the eventer she wants.

    Viney, interested in your comments about the Out of Place get. I have one of his granddaughters, by Orville n Wilburs, and I'm thrilled with her. She's simply perfect! Correct, classy, sensible (but I think she got that from her mama who is by Caller I.D. (Phone Trick) out of a Star de Naskra mare). Actually, dam (The Jolly) is in training as an eventer with our EventerJ.

    Maybe Out of Place throws good temperament as well. My filly is exceptionally classy and I've attributed that to her dam who, out of the hundreds I've worked with on the track, I wanted to keep: that's how exceptional she is.



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