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  1. #1
    AwesomeAdventure Guest

    Default Salmonella outbreak??

    I am considering moving my horse to a boarding barn closer to work. I made an appointment to visit yesterday and discovered that they recently had a salmonella outbreak. They said it was very minor and they isolated the horse and removed all horses from the barn and now are in the process of disinfecting the entire barn with bleach. They will be moving the horses back into the barn tomorrow ( i think they gave 5-7days).

    I was considering moving my horse Jan 1st. She would be on individual turnout, with walkways between all fields. When i asked about their manure management, i found out they just spread it on their fields. (not so good, especially in light of the salmonella outbreak). However, i don't think they have been spreading in the field my horse would be turned out in as it has been rested for several months. Perhaps i can request them to not spread the manure in her field?

    Would you consider moving your horse here? Is there a recommended wait period after the outbreak? Three weeks enough time to see if there is going to be any more incidents?



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun. 13, 2009
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    Default

    id be a bit nervous. any idea why/how they had salmonella?



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug. 9, 2002
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    USA
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    Default

    I'd be nervous as well. It's difficult to properly disinfect a barn - ALL organic matter must be removed (ie. scrub or pressure wash walls, mats must be taken out, etc.) then you can disinfect with bleach or an agent like Roccal-D.

    Also, if the horses were taken out of the barn, where did they put them? Is it possible a horse might have been put into the field your horse will be in?



  4. #4
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    Oct. 2, 2003
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    Mayerthorpe, AB
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    Well I had a weanling get salmonella about 20yrs ago. I was a newbie breeder and decided to wean and geld within 3wks of each other and learned not to the hard way. Vet said it can be in the environment (ie them eating on the ground where a mouse might have been or? ) but their immune system has to be down to get it and I guess I had stressed out his immune system too much with the weaning/gelding. I had 3 or 4 other horses at the time all in the same field with him and since I was living with my parents we only had one field and they remained with him the whole time. Nobody else got it and then or at any other time. My vet did say there is a shot to give as a preventative but my vet was not sure how effective it was. Might be something you can look into as this was 20yrs ago and maybe it is a lot better now. Anyways, just wanted to share my story. I would still feel uncomfortable with moving my horse there right away and would probably wait a month or so and if no other horses got sick I would consider it.
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  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep. 8, 2007
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    Default

    I personally would wait another 30 days to move my horse there. I would also keep checking and make sure there were no new cases during that time.



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun. 8, 2003
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    I have heard that if you were to randomly culture samples from 50 healthy horses, you would come up with a few that would test positive for salmonella. Apparently, some horses just "shed" it.

    That said, once it's there, it's REALLY hard to actually get rid of it... Just because they disinfected the whole place with bleach, does not mean that they got it. They should culture samples from all over the place to determine that they actually got rid of it. But, I would be concerned about the fields and the places that they could not easily disinfect. Also, I'd want to know how they have been disposing their muck from the stalls/pastures during this time...



  7. #7
    Join Date
    May. 26, 2005
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    I had heard that New Bolton has been fighting salmonella off and on for quite a while and if they can't get rid of it, it must be really stubborn.



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct. 4, 2003
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    Clinton, BC
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    I've always understood that when horses get sick from this bacterium, it is often water related... dirty water troughs/buckets. The bacterium is fairly common naturally in the environment. One very senior vet once told me that samonella sickness from dirty watering arrangements was extremely common. One of the most common sources of death in horses he dealt with.



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec. 14, 2007
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    Wilsonville, Ontario, CANADA
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    From what I heard, University of Colorado had to encase their floors in new cement several years ago as they could not eradicate it no matter what chemical disinfectants they used ...

    Years ago I Stood a stallion named Spot Pocket and had him on our own farm

    A client wanted to bring a mare in to breed to him

    About a month before, they sent a young filly to one of our vet hospitals for minor surgery, and she came back with projectile diarreah. After testing it, the vets proclaimed her to be an active shedder of the salmonella bacteria

    I then freaked as the mare they were looking to breed to my stallion was due to come onto my property in the next week

    I called University of Guelph, Davis, New Bolton, Colorado and Ilderton (where the initial filly had come back from) and learned a LOT about salmonella from all of them

    First off - they have done soil tests on affected farms to a depth of 6, 12 and 24 inches, one, two, five and ten years after a confirmed outbreak and found the salmonella bacteria alive and well and thriving in the soil samples taken, so unless your disinfectant plan is to bring a backhoe in and take 24 inches of contaminated soil out of every paddock, every square inch of land that has ever seen a horse on it, you are not going to get rid of it anytime soon. This has been in areas with high temperatures variations going through deep freezes in the winter and high heat in the summer months. The salmonella is not killed off

    Second. Go to any race track, horse show, auction house, boarding barn, private farm and the chances are very very good there are one or several salmonella affected horses in residence. The *problem* with salmonella though is that it is not actively "shedding" while the horse is relaxed, so you could take fecal samples from every horse every day and unless they are being stressed, they are not going to shed and the samples will come back negative. You need to stress them by taking them to a show, trailering them, take a foal away from its dam and while she is running around the stall screaming for her baby, take THAT sample as it is spraying the walls and do that for FIVE DAYS IN A ROW, and then you will find out if that horse is salmonella positive or not and is or is not shedding the bacteria

    Third. There are over 200 known strains of salmonella bacteria. Obviously nothing that anyone can vaccinate for at all ...

    Fourth. The hay guy, the feed man, the veterinarian, the blacksmith, the visitor, etc that comes to your farm with a bit of manure on their boot that they picked up at the farm before yours or YOU going to a horse show earlier today and stepping into a pile of manure may well be bringing salmonella contaminated manure onto your property and infecting your property forevermore and short of having a foot bath that everyone has to step in as they leave their vehicle there isnt any easy or logical way to control something like this

    Fifth. Back to the mare coming in to be bred to my stallion. The overwhelming consensus by every vet that I spoke with was that short of asking every single mare owner to chase their mare around with a bag tied at the end of a lunge whip and scare the living beejesus out of her for five days in a row and get those samples tested at a cost of approximately $100.00 per test, there is NO WAY that anyone will know if that mare coming in for breeding or that mare that you just bought, is salmonella postive or not. No mare owner in their right mind would do so and they'd think you were stark raving nuts to even suggest it ... So you simply do the best you can and accept that there are some things you cannot control. In this particular case, my only option would have been to house this mare on a concrete pad during her stay at my farm, use separate utensils for cleaning her out, change my footwear after I left her area and thoroughly disinfect her area down a drain in the middle of the concrete pad and not allow any water spray to go ANYWHERE outside of that contained area. Obviously - not possible ...

    Sixth. Based on everything that I learned from my investigations, in the case of the OP's question, it is not going to matter one iota if you wait one day, one month, one year or 10 years to move your horse into this farm. You also have NO idea if the farm you are leaving has 1 horse or 10 horses or more than are salmonella shedders. Just because they havent declared they havent found a salmonella case on their farm doesnt mean they dont have horses that are shedders ... They simply may not have any idea at all

    Seventh. EVery single time you go to a horse show, race track, auction, etc the chances are very very good that you will come into direct contact with literally dozens of horses that ARE shedders. What precautions do YOU take to ensure you dont bring any of that contaminated material back to the farm with YOU???

    Eighth. We did bring that mare in to breed to Spotty, and whether she was in fact a shedder, whether she did in fact leave some contaminated material on our property, whether she did in fact infect any of my horses at the time, I have no idea at all ... None appeared to be compromised in any way, I dont own any of them anymore and I wasnt about to spend $500 x 5 horses to find out either every time a new mare came onto the farm to be bred ...

    Hope this helps in your decision!



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar. 23, 2006
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    OKC
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    As TC said, many, many, many horses are carriers of Salm. But a vast majority will not shed the bacterium unless stressed. This is why we take a salm sample for 3 consecutive days a horse is brought to the hospital I work at and a survey sample taken every Monday. Some horses come in Salm positive, but the majority that come up positive come up positive on the 2nd or 3rd culture or subsequent survey cultures due to only shedding it after being stressed.

    And while the bleach could take care of it, they must first remove every bit of organic material FIRST or else the bleach is rendered useless. We personally use Tektrol at the hospital. Any stalls that house Salm + or suspect horses are disinfected 3 times before another horse is placed in said stall. If a Salm+ horse was turned out in a paddock (before it was sent to Isolation), the paddock the horse was in is shut down for 30 days. What is said farm doing about their paddocks?

    Some farms in my area are known for having more Salm+ horses than others, so I would guess that there would be something in the soil.
    Only two emotions belong in the saddle: One is a sense of humor. The other is patience.



  11. #11
    AwesomeAdventure Guest

    Default

    Thanks for the info, i've certainly been learning more about salmonella then i ever wanted too!

    My biggest concern is that they spread manure on all fields. So even though mine would be on individual turnout, she would still be exposed to the manure. The field doesn't have the best grass, so this is the condition that may keep me from moving there.

    This would be a self care arrangement, so i would be cleaning the stall and watering--so I would be able to control this portion.

    I'm in the process of buying a home, so have about 30-60 days until i would be moving so i guess i could just wait and see what happens and continue to check all other options. This is the only facility in the area with an indoor, so that is what really attracts me!

    Thanks for everyone's input!



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jun. 8, 2003
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    153

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AwesomeAdventure View Post

    My biggest concern is that they spread manure on all fields. So even though mine would be on individual turnout, she would still be exposed to the manure. The field doesn't have the best grass, so this is the condition that may keep me from moving there.

    This would be a huge concern for me too, since salmonella is spread through the fecal material! Once it is spread over an area like that, it is definitely not contained and there is not really an easy way to clean it up/disinfect!



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Dec. 14, 2007
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    Wilsonville, Ontario, CANADA
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    This would be a huge concern for me too, since salmonella is spread through the fecal material! Once it is spread over an area like that, it is definitely not contained and there is not really an easy way to clean it up/disinfect!
    Agreed. Once that has been done, literally every square inch of paddock has now been affected by the salmonella bacteria from any affected horses, forever and ever ...

    But - playing Devil's Advocate here - every barn probably on the face of this earth, has had a salmonella positive horse in the stalls, in the cross ties, in the paddocks, in the rings and arena's at some point in time. Unless the facility was brand spanking new, each horse was tested, no new horses had come in, no owner/visitor/blacksmith/vet/hay guy/feed guy/etc had ever gone to another place where horses were and trekked ANY manure in on their footwear, that is probably - logically speaking - the only way you will be 100% ensured that THAT facility is a salmonella free zone ...

    Just truly not practical at all ...

    The salmonella laden manure that was dumped on that paddock last week or last month is no more dangerous or potent than the salmonella infected manure that was dumped in that same pasture earlier in the spring. Salmonella is salmonella. "Old" salmonella doesnt affect any less or any less virulently than "new" salmonella does ...

    So again - you truly can only worry about the things that you can control and accept that there are some things out there that are BEYOND your control ...



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jul. 1, 2007
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    496

    Default

    Interesting about the manure management. In our area, it usually gets pulled and re-used in a different industry specific to our area.

    If farms spread their manure in the pastures, what's the protocol on that? What's to say the farm isn't introducing more worms/cysts/parasites, etc to the horses grazing in those pastures?



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Dec. 24, 2009
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    17

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    What about water runoff from a spread field into yours when it rains? Something the health dept taught me when I had to clean up the raw sewage my oh so nice neighbor threw into my paddock.

    Maybe not a problem if your field is the highest ground.At least you were informed of the situation.



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Dec. 14, 2007
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    Wilsonville, Ontario, CANADA
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    What about water runoff from a spread field into yours when it rains?
    Salmonella stays around forever or maybe even longer ...

    Neither heat/cold cycles nor wet/dry cycles will affect it in the slightest so yes - if runoff from their field comes into yours - Merry Christmas - you get it as well ...



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