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  1. #1

    Default Stallion pics for my new SPS Fabriano mare? Help with understanding info.

    I am eagerly awaiting my new mare. She will (hopefully) arrive a few days after Christmas!!

    SHe is by Fabriano out of a SPS mare by Brentano II- Graphit. SHe is a fourth generation SPS mare. There is more information on this mare that I can't read or understand. I am listing it below if anyone will "translate" what it means.

    "As promised, here is some more information .

    These are some of the licensed stallions that come from this motherline :

    Regazzoni, Donnerwerther, Calypso Classic, Grannusso, Fhgast, Rubiloh, Sherwood, Sherwood Forest, Wishing Well & Weinzauber.

    There are a lot of State Premium mares in this family, some were even Ratje Niebuhr show participants. Feline’s mother was part of the winning mare family at the show Emsland and was also champion mare at another show.

    Feline herself was shown in hand, four years in a row.

    1999 at a Bezirksschau, where she was awarded a 1E price
    2000 at a Vereinsschau where she was awarded a 1A price
    2001 at a Vereinsschau where she was awarded a 1A price
    2002 at a Vereinsschau where she was awarded a 1A price

    She had seven foals:

    2002 filly by Hohenstein
    2003 colt by Don Marcello ( I think this is the one that went to Australia)

    2004 filly by Don Marcello ( sold at the Elite auction to Chile)
    2005 colt by Hochadel (was picked to be raised as a stallion and selected for and sold at the famous Riding horse auction.)

    2006 filly by Hochadel ( sold at the Elite auction to Italy)
    2007 filly by Hochadel
    2008 was bred to Hofrat (lost foal after importation at 9 mths)
    2009 filly by Danone I
    "

    For instance what significance is "Ratje Niebuhr" ? Just participants, no winners?

    What is a " Bezirksschau" vs a "Vereinsschau". I can assume a 1a is better than a 1e?!

    Any helpful insights into the mares pedigree?http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/feline27


    Now finally... Who would you breed her to? The one thing I see that she needs improvement on is a better (read more active) hind leg. She does not bend her hocks as well as I like and could step under a little more with a very slightly longer hind leg.

    Thank you!



  2. #2
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    Hard to say without photos, but Londonderry is one you might look at. Don Frederico is another nice long legged stallion... we are standing a Don Frederico stallion here for the '10 season. He belongs to my very good friends, and is out of a Rohdiamant mare. Though the Rohdiamant mare also has a good hind leg, this colt comes VERY well under himself. He has longer legs than his dam. FWIW, he's also a very sweet boy


    Although the damlines are very different, these breeders (breeders of US stallion Fabuleux), have used Don Frederico several times on their Fabriano mares... with exceptional results.
    http://augustehof.de/frame-e.htm


    Lucky you, SPS Fabriano mare... I'm jealous! Would love to see some photos, and that might help with stallion choices.
    Last edited by Dressage_Diva333; Dec. 14, 2009 at 08:25 PM.
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donna Belcher View Post
    These are some of the licensed stallions that come from this motherline :

    Regazzoni, Donnerwerther, Calypso Classic, Grannusso, Fhgast, Rubiloh, Sherwood, Sherwood Forest, Wishing Well & Weinzauber.
    Here is your mare's damline (she herself is not in this database, but her dam is there). I did not have time, but you might want to add your girl to this database, it is helpful to play around with testmatings and evaluate damlines

    http://www.paardenfokken.nl/family.php?horseid=281478

    Quote Originally Posted by Donna Belcher View Post
    There are a lot of State Premium mares in this family, some were even Ratje Niebuhr show participants. Feline’s mother was part of the winning mare family at the show Emsland and was also champion mare at another show.

    Feline herself was shown in hand, four years in a row.
    "

    For instance what significance is "Ratje Niebuhr" ? Just participants, no winners?

    What is a " Bezirksschau" vs a "Vereinsschau". I can assume a 1a is better than a 1e?!
    The Ratje Neibuhr show is a very large and important mare show in which mares have to qualify at earlier, less prestigious shows, in order to enter. So while your mare's relatives might not have won at Ratje Niebuhr, even being invited is a benefit. If my memory serves me, Ratje Niebuhr show also does not occur annually (my memory says it might be every other year? Maybe someone else has better memory than me).

    1A is first prize and is a requirement in order to achieve SPS status. It also has a somewhat numeric meaning (ie, mare is a 7 or over in general conformation and movement). My understanding is that the judges do not have to give a 1A prize out if the mares do not have the highest quality, even to the mare that was in first place (because she was "scored" lower than a 7).

    Mares in each class (ie, by age) that get their 1A can then compete for overall mare champion. They also have mare family classes in which a mother and her daughters show together, or 3 daughters of the same dam show in tandem for their dam.

    Emsland, Vereinsschau, Bezirksschau are the names of the shows in which she competed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Donna Belcher View Post

    Now finally... Who would you breed her to? The one thing I see that she needs improvement on is a better (read more active) hind leg. She does not bend her hocks as well as I like and could step under a little more with a very slightly longer hind leg.

    Thank you!
    Are you aiming for fresh or frozen? Are you aiming for dressage or would you like to take advantage of your mare's more all around pedigree?

    Conformationally, what you you like to improve. Is she more modern or more old type? Leggy or more short legged?



  4. #4
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dressage_Diva333 View Post
    Hard to say without photos, but Londonderry is one you might look at.
    I think this mare is actually currently in foal to Londonderry



  5. #5
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    I think that Bezirk is a general term for breeding district and Verein is breeding club (for example, you can see a list of all of the Hanoverian breeding clubs here http://landgestuetcelle.de/cms/front...0&changelang=1)

    My first thought is that your mare could be heavy and/or produce heavy, which goes along with previous breeding to Trakehner blood although Hohenstein would not be known for a quick hind leg. I'm surprised at the use of Donnerhall, but Don Marcello has Matcho as a damsire so that might have been enough blood and the results were successful it appears.

    Based on this, I agree Don Frederico and Londonderry are probably good choices if you in the US looking at frozen. Could also consider Dauphin as he seems to be one of the more refined Donnerhalls. Assuming you are looking for Hanoverian, fresh options are numerous and could include Donarweiss, Harvard, Liberty Gold, Waterford, etc. I would almost like best, on paper, to see her bred to a W (the Woehler W) line stallion. We have a lot of good ones here and that blood is being used less and less as the S and D proliferate. Take advantage of it now while you can and breed her or her offspring later to the younger stallions.



  6. #6
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    Oct. 11, 2006
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    Default Pics of this mare

    Here is a page a just made for:

    http://www.sporthorsesandponies.com/Feline.html

    There are a couple pics of her and two of her offspring.

    YES... she is in foal to Londonderry! :-)

    I am looking to produce a Dressage prospect foal that has a an all around pedigree.

    The biggest thing I would like to improve on this mare is better use of the hind leg... ie more bending of the joints and carrying more weight.



  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgewood View Post
    Here is your mare's damline (she herself is not in this database, but her dam is there). I did not have time, but you might want to add your girl to this database, it is helpful to play around with testmatings and evaluate damlines

    http://www.paardenfokken.nl/family.php?horseid=281478
    Trying to figure out how to use this fourm... I went to this website and found out my mares damline is Claudine , hannover stamm 562

    It looked to my untrained eye that there are 11 stallions from this mare line. Wonder if my mare could make a 12th?

    I really have no clue what it all means or how to do hypothetical matings. Even when I pressed the "english" version it was still mostly NOT in english!

    Think I will go back and play around with the site a bit more! Thank you for showing it to me.



  8. #8
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    NICE MARE. Saw her advertised, wished I had the $$ to purchase her. I think Don Frederico might be your ticket. The colt here has such an incredible hind leg, lots of power to sit and carry as well. I so wish I would have had a video camera the first day we brought him here... he was exploring his new pasture and just absolutly dancing, it was hard to look away from that fabulous hind end/hind leg. I've heard that DF's semen is very good too!

    PS, I love your pony stallions, we have similiar taste!
    Making Your Ambitions a Reality at Secret Ambition Stables.
    Quality Welsh Ponies and Welsh Crosses bred for sport
    Facebook Page.
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  9. #9
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    Default and mares too!!

    Did you notice Bur-Dals Shaklina? SHe did pretty well at her inspections! :-) Scored a 52 and Premium status at her RPSI inspections!! Ranked second in the nation... even against big warmblood mares... she is only 12.2h!



  10. #10
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    Oct. 12, 2006
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    Canada
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    Default

    Lovely mare, just by show record and offspring!!

    What about Dauphin? Fabuleux's full sister (they are Fabriano/Augustinus xx) has a licenced son standing at Celle who is Dauphin/Fabriano and is quite nice. His name is Don Presidente if you want to look him up.

    Otherwise I think Londonderry is also a good choice. Fabriano is from a good, classic Hanoverian line with proven versatility. I would love to stick with Celle stallions with her, but that's a little bit of my traditional side coming out!
    Member OMGiH I loff my mares clique!!!



  11. #11
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    LOVELY mare! big congrats!
    I have seen several of her offspring in Germany, and a good producer for sure!

    Yes, the big show is only every other year.

    For fresh, take a look at Benidetto (Belissimo M/SPS Cordoba). International dressage horses on the dam line.
    A very good active hind leg, and comes under himself. Very elastic and elegant.

    see him here: www.walnut-farm.com big discounts now.
    Linda Woltz
    www.walnut-farm.com
    standing Benidetto (Belissimo M/SPS COrdoba)



  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donna Belcher View Post

    Think I will go back and play around with the site a bit more! Thank you for showing it to me.
    Once you get used to it, the database is helpful. I saw you added your mare and I did a testmating to Londonderry, but it won't let me paste the result here.

    You have to go to breeding tools, virtual mating, and then in the next menu, click "find mare" and it will pop up a box you can type in Feline. Do the same for the stallion.

    This site also has the ability to do testmatings

    http://www.sporthorse-data.com/dbtestmating.php?

    I usually do a testmating in both as sporthorse database gives you more line breeding stats and paardenfolken gives you more dam line and ox/xx percentages.

    For fresh stallions, what about Wolkentanz II in Canada. He has an excellent hindleg and is very good at adding type. I thought I saw an offspring out of a Fabriano mare.

    What about Loerke? I saw a lot of local Loerke's at Mo Swanson's farm and most were very good movers with a quick hindleg.

    Or to capitalize on your mare's jumping ability, maybe Pablo. I have a Pablo filly out of a Gold Luck - Weltmeyer - Brentano mare and she is a very nice coming 3 year old filly. Excellent hindleg activity and she really keeps her hindquarters under her all the time.



  13. #13
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    Nice looking mare! I'd look for a stallion that passes on a bit more slope to the shoulder and more angulation in the hind leg. Her conformation behind could relate to what you are seeing in motion.


    Quote Originally Posted by Walnut Farm View Post

    For fresh, take a look at Benidetto (Belissimo M/SPS Cordoba).
    Interested to see this recommendation to line-breed to Bolero (baby would be 4x4x5) as this isn't a strategy I've seen. Has this been successful?



  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schiffon View Post




    Interested to see this recommendation to line-breed to Bolero (baby would be 4x4x5) as this isn't a strategy I've seen. Has this been successful?
    Yes - i am curious about this as well. Bellissimo (and the line) is specifically known for not improving hind leg activity. Nor, in general, is the Bolero line known for this either. So why line breed on it?
    The Weltmeyer line or Londonderry could be interesting. Perhaps Liberty Gold?



  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donna Belcher View Post
    I am eagerly awaiting my new mare. She will (hopefully) arrive a few days after Christmas!!

    SHe is by Fabriano out of a SPS mare by Brentano II- Graphit. SHe is a fourth generation SPS mare. There is more information on this mare that I can't read or understand. I am listing it below if anyone will "translate" what it means.

    "As promised, here is some more information .

    These are some of the licensed stallions that come from this motherline :

    Regazzoni, Donnerwerther, Calypso Classic, Grannusso, Fhgast, Rubiloh, Sherwood, Sherwood Forest, Wishing Well & Weinzauber.

    There are a lot of State Premium mares in this family, some were even Ratje Niebuhr show participants. Feline’s mother was part of the winning mare family at the show Emsland and was also champion mare at another show.

    Feline herself was shown in hand, four years in a row.

    1999 at a Bezirksschau, where she was awarded a 1E price
    2000 at a Vereinsschau where she was awarded a 1A price
    2001 at a Vereinsschau where she was awarded a 1A price
    2002 at a Vereinsschau where she was awarded a 1A price

    She had seven foals:

    2002 filly by Hohenstein
    2003 colt by Don Marcello ( I think this is the one that went to Australia)

    2004 filly by Don Marcello ( sold at the Elite auction to Chile)
    2005 colt by Hochadel (was picked to be raised as a stallion and selected for and sold at the famous Riding horse auction.)

    2006 filly by Hochadel ( sold at the Elite auction to Italy)
    2007 filly by Hochadel
    2008 was bred to Hofrat (lost foal after importation at 9 mths)
    2009 filly by Danone I
    "

    For instance what significance is "Ratje Niebuhr" ? Just participants, no winners?

    What is a " Bezirksschau" vs a "Vereinsschau". I can assume a 1a is better than a 1e?!

    Any helpful insights into the mares pedigree?http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/feline27


    Now finally... Who would you breed her to? The one thing I see that she needs improvement on is a better (read more active) hind leg. She does not bend her hocks as well as I like and could step under a little more with a very slightly longer hind leg.

    Thank you!

    The mare family originated from Mr. Kregel and he has it still active. I think there was one at this years licensing quite well.

    The stallion Don Corazon was bred by him by Don Frederico - Weltmeyer and than Gondola by Graphit - Dagobert (fullsister of the one in your mare's pedigree)
    Out of Granoela there is a mare by Airport activel showing in jumping classes level M last year (m is something like 1,30m I think). Another one (bred by someone else later) by Pegano (A pilot son) is competing level A jumping. Altogether she had 6 offspring that were showing under saddle in germany. To find out more is possible, but not now and not with my databases.

    Ratje Niebuhr show took only place every few years and mares from all hanvoerian breeding clubs are competing. As far as I understood it will not be held anymore. one of my mares was nominated in 2000, too and received a 1e I think. She was in a class with some really big name mares and by bigname breeders. So it was an honesty to be nominated in first place and finish decently was also very nice ! There were around 150 mares at that show altogether. I have the program somewhere yours may have been at the same the next was held 2002 during the first Worldchampionship in Verden.
    They ranked each class (consisting of maybe 10 or 12 mares). Best gets 1A second 1B etc. at that show. At normal shows (Bezirk and Verein) 1A is given to good mares and not just the best of class.
    You had to be nominated by your "Bezirk" or Verein. Verein is the breeding club so a show of the Verein s a show of the relatively small club and the bezirk is quite big and if she was located in Emsland also quite a good quality show show.

    The Brentano mare does not have any offspring that is or was successful in German riding show ring. Your mare has one gelding successfully competing in 2008 in Germany 2003 model by Don Marcello. Interestingly he was competed in my area and by one person I know by name. That gelding was placed level A (1) once 4th and once 7th. In 2009 no placings by this horse.

    Actually I would really like Lörke or Liberty Gold on her ! Or a jumper with good movement, maybe something like Laptop. There must be good jump in her - do you have her MPT scores ?
    I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC
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    http://youtu.be/1O23BeiKpkY



  16. #16
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    Here is Harvard's website, http://www.pangaeafarm.com/Harvard.html if you are interested, thank you Schiffon for suggestimg him. I would imagine that they have repeated the Hohenstein line cross with her 4 out of 7 foals for a reason There is also a pic of a Harvard x Brentano foal that was 3rd at the South German Championships on his progeny page.



  17. #17
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    Default How cool!!

    To think I own a mare with such history! :-)

    So her 2003 colt/gelding stayed in Germany? Maybe it was her 2005 colt by Hochadel (pictured on above link) that went to Australia? Does anyone know if he was approved? Or what happened to him?

    I am in Florida and as such have easy access to frozen via Judey-YancyFarms.com

    Of the stallions she has available I must say my favorites are:

    #1) Rubin-Royal!!!!! From what I see in the videos this is my personal "perfect" mover! However, I have been told by several different people his full brother (Romanov) is the better producer (especially as far as hind ends go)

    #2) Floriscount

    #3) Daddy Cool

    #4) Hoftanz ( based mostly on previous breeding choices)

    #5) Stedinger

    #6) Alexando P ( OOOH what would I get with this cross???)

    #7) Fidertanz

    #8) Abke (I know, I know, but his foals are so typey!) I really have no idea how he or his foals move.


    As far as fresh:

    #1) Sinatra Song (as I can't afford Sandro Hit)

    #2) Shakespeare

    #3) Redwine (waiting to see how my four that are coming move)

    #4) Rosenthal (LOVE his typey foals)


    I have considered breeding her to Weltmeyer (Told that would be a "bad" move) and Florencio as well.

    Guess I have not truly narrowed down the field much as none of the suggestions given so far are of ANY of these stallions.

    Still looking.... and getting more confused every minute



  18. #18
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    You have a mare from a very successful breeder/bloodline. Do not try to "re-invent" the wheel. I would go with you initial instincts. If she has done well with Hohenstein, then maybe give Hoftanz a try. I am not a fan of Rubin Royal. Romanov is the better producer, even if Rubin Royal may look "fancier" under saddle.

    The only other one on that list I would try would be Stedinger. Or maybe look at Shakespeare. His first crop seems to be of a nice type and good movers. The others on you list are either unproven or would not be ones I would look to to improve hind leg.

    Best of luck.



  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crosiadore Farm View Post
    You have a mare from a very successful breeder/bloodline. Do not try to "re-invent" the wheel. I would go with you initial instincts. If she has done well with Hohenstein, then maybe give Hoftanz a try. I am not a fan of Rubin Royal. Romanov is the better producer, even if Rubin Royal may look "fancier" under saddle.

    The only other one on that list I would try would be Stedinger.
    I agree 100% with the above.



  20. #20
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    Me too, I agree with CF and YL above.



    Why exactly would Weltmeyer be a "bad move"?

    You definately get an active hind leg and although some have questioned his offsprings ability to sit, there are many, many successful at FEI.

    And if you used him as grandsire, what ever characteristic has been deemed bad for you, may have been improved upon.

    I don't really see all that many similarities of those you listed as favs for her except that they are youngish and trendy. Never heard of Alexando P but the one 10 second video that comes up on Google/You Tube does not show a hind leg I would want to train up the levels.



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