[Cartier]

I'm sure that out of the millions of sperm frozen in a single dose, they'd be able to find a few "swimmers"! And from what I understand, when using sperm injection, the ability to swim is not nearly as critical. That's a major aspect of the advantage!

Was wondering, if the sperm isn’t vigorous enough to get the job done, do you want the offspring of that sperm and/or that characteristic transmitted to the next generation? Isn’t reproductive vitality an important consideration in the grand scheme of things? Do you want a line of breeding animals that are difficult to breed. And, if a sire is good, and he’s been around as long as Donnerhall, aren’t there sons, grand sons, even great great grandsons that are even better? After all, the point of being a good sire is that the next generation is better. Why go so many generations backward?

About using Donnerhall’s sire, years ago Arthur and I helped friends with the proposal that got two of their mares approved by Robin for breeding to Donnerhall’s sire. At the time the deal was that the owner got the semen for free, paid all expenses to get the mare in foal, and then Robin had the right to purchase the foal for a very nice sum (I think it was $15K) If Robin did not want the foal, the owner got to keep it and paid a very reasonable stud fee. It was a gamble that seemed very enticing in the beginning. In the end, neither mare got in foal with the semen, the owners paid thousands and got nothing.

[jdeboer01]

Was wondering, if the sperm isn’t vigorous enough to get the job done, do you want the offspring of that sperm and/or that characteristic transmitted to the next generation? Isn’t reproductive vitality an important consideration in the grand scheme of things?

I may be wrong, but I don't believe Donnerhall had any fertility issues. Not all stallions freeze well, but that's not really relevant to their overall fertility.

[alexandra]

Yes, it needs to be alive, and (hopefully) morphologically normal, but it does not need to swim for ICSI

Sorry that I used the wrong wording but what I meant was at least tbey have to be alive.

In any case we have also had a mare inseminated with that method - not pregnant. If I already know there are issues with the semen. Why should I take the risk of paying a huuuuuuge fee in advance, than a huge sum on a special insemination method to find out in the end that everyone telling me was right... If there would be an option of you pay for semen only if you have your mare in foal and you have a really good and not expansive repro vet. Well that is another story. But why would one want a dircet Donnerhall ? I doubt that after all those years there is still such a hype.
Use some of his modern and up to date and sucessful (in breeding) sons, grandsons. E.g. for the moment I would watch out for Desperados.

[back in the saddle]

for the moment I would watch out for Desperados.

Since I was the OP, I can hijack my own thread.

What do you think about Desperados's hind leg? I don't feel like his leg comes under enough. ???

[DownYonder]

I may be wrong, but I don't believe Donnerhall had any fertility issues. Not all stallions freeze well, but that's not really relevant to their overall fertility.

He had low fertility in his later years. Breeders had to send their mares to Grönwohldohf where they were inseminated immediately after he was collected.

And as wonderful as he was as a performance horse and (in his time) as a breeding stallion, I am not sure that TODAY he would move the breed forward. His work ethic is timeless and always in demand - but not so much his type. I would look to one of his very good sons or grandsons instead. Some like Don Schufro and De Niro may not be the most modern in type, either, but it is hard to argue with their success as sires. De Niro has become a shooting star for producing GP horses. And the frozen is very proven. Edited to add that if I was still breeding, I would be trying to get a Don Schufro mare to breed from.

[jdeboer01]

And as wonderful as he was as a performance horse and (in his time) as a breeding stallion, I am not sure that TODAY he would move the breed forward. His work ethic is timeless and always in demand - but not so much his type.

Agreed. However, individual breeders may have reasons as to why they would want to try for a foal directly from Donnerhall, or other "older" deceased stallions. For example, I would love to someday try using Rubinstein, via ICSI, in my Friesian breeding program as a source of high quality outside genetics. I feel his type was/is more compatible to the Friesian type than some of the more modern stallions (both in his brain AND conformation!)

My whole point was that, foals ARE possible from less-than-fantastic quality frozen semen using some of todays specialized techniques -- if someone wants it bad enough.

[Aveael]

Hi, I'm not sure if your still breeding but I have just had a positive 17 day scan
of my mare in foal to Donnerhall using frozen Semen. The semen was frozen in 1996
and was in a 5ml straw. The team at Equi breed in New Zealand were amazing and they
managed to process the semen to produce a smaller amount of quality semen with 70%
motility. This was then used in hysteroscopic insemination with success.

I even have 5 straws .25ml left as the mare took first time.

[Mistysmom]

Terrible quality. Your better off donating to charity rather than gamble with his frozen....

ETA: Congratulations that you got your mare in-foal with his semen. Your lucky to have such a wonderful vet/breeding team in your area. Please keep us posted!

[Kerole]

OMG Aveael!!! Congratulations! It is so incredibly heartening to see such super sires being used in NZ. Of course I want to know everything about you and your breeding program

A PM is on the way...

[Aveael]

Hi, I'm not sure if your still breeding but I have just had a positive 17 day scan
of my mare in foal to Donnerhall using frozen Semen. The semen was frozen in 1996
and was in a 5ml straw. The team at Equi breed in New Zealand were amazing and they
managed to process the semen to produce a smaller amount of quality semen with 70%
motility. This was then used in hysteroscopic insemination with success.

I even have 5 straws .25ml left as the mare took first time.

[Sunnydays]

A gal in Canada owns a Donnerhall mare who was conceived using frozen (about 1999-2000). The mare has done very well undersaddle, was MPT champion if I recall, and Best Canadian-bred Hanoverian Mare. She has since had several good foals including a Totilas foal in 2012 who was designated a stallion prospect.

[Lord Helpus]

I have been looking for a young talented sporthorse and I came across this guy, a son of Donnerhall:

http://www.solomonfarm.com/stallions/dergraf.html

I lusted after one of his get, but at the last minute decided I would rather have a gelding than a filly.

[alexandra]

...Use some of his modern and up to date and sucessful (in breeding) sons, grandsons. E.g. for the moment I would watch out for Desperados.

In hindsight this is quite funny to read my own post ;-)

[vandenbrink]

I agree with Alexandra, why would you want a direct Donnerhall. I realize he was a great sire, but I'd like to see him in the third or fourth generation in stallions. Sir Gregory for example is double Donnerhall, but mixed with other super super breeding such as Sandro hit making for a more modern and for most of us a much more marketable end product.

[RunningwaterWBs]

Guess I should look to rehome my SPS Donnerhall mare then?
(I'm just kidding; I understand your point and agree with you -- we always need to be looking forward in the breeding.)

[bluemoonfarms]

Because you can get this. Mare is a direct Donnerhall daughter. Top USDF Broodmare, Blue Ribbons from Devon, Ribbons at Hunter Shows, 3 foals and the filly is an EMC. She is 12 yrs old in pic and what more could you ask for? An elegant black ET Colt by Hofrat.

[QUOTE=vandenbrink;6810944]I agree with Alexandra, why would you want a direct Donnerhall. I realize he was a great sire, but I'd like to see him in the third or fourth generation in stallions. Sir Gregory for example is double Donnerhall, but mixed with other super super breeding such as Sandro hit making for a more modern and for most of us a much more marketable end product.

[RunningwaterWBs]

Gorgeous mare, bluemoonfarms! What is her damline?

[alexandra]

When I read the answers now, I think I have been misunderstood. I meant who would want to breed a direct Donnerhall in these times where the breeding world is already further down the road. I certainly did not mean that the existing Donnerhalls were/are not worth having or not producing well ! Hence also my comment look at the sons !

[bluemoonfarms]

Gorgeous mare, bluemoonfarms! What is her damline?

Thank you so much. She is 19 yrs old now and still looks great. I am going to try another ET with Dante Weltino this Spring. I want to get a keeper filly from her. Too bad that her Hofrat foal is a colt. I love everything about him but the wrong sex. I have kept him intact in case someone wants to keep him as a stallion prospect. The mare is EM Donata Donnerhall/ Quasi Roi/ Amazonas. She scored an 8 on her Inspection in Germany before importation. I wouldn't change anything on her and she is a lifer. 💐🌷🌺👸👯🎀💎💚💖💜

[back in the saddle]

If I knew I could get a Donnerhall / Rubinstein foal I'd do it no questions asked. lol