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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec. 11, 2007
    Location
    Montreal, Canada
    Posts
    512

    Default Holsteiner breeder's: is she worth breeding ? Which stallion would you chose ?

    I read the Holsteiner aproval thread and a poster said something that made me think twice about the worthiness of breeding my Holsteiner mare. " you are exactly correct in the need for a good Holsteiner mare. There are some I wouldn't breed".

    So I am asking experienced breeders for their opinions. Is she worth breeding ? If yes, which stallion would you chose ?

    She is a 2007 filly by Beaulieu's Conquest out of a Accord II mare. Her full pedigree can be seen here:
    http://img121.imageshack.us/i/beauli...ricapedig.pdf/
    If you right clic on the image you can zoom in.

    IMO she is very well built. She as a perfect mind and attitude. She demonstrates great aptitudes for jumping and she has the movement too. Her dam has proved herself in 1m40 in Europe.

    The foal would be for sale. Fresh semen would be prefered for her first foal. Money is no object. She is registered Selle Luxembourgeois but will be presented to AHHA for breeding aproval next year as a 3 y.o. I have no objection to present her to other registries.

    Here are some pictures. Sorry I don't have a perfect confo shot:
    http://img197.imageshack.us/i/018copie.jpg/
    http://img199.imageshack.us/i/27082009018.jpg/
    http://img197.imageshack.us/i/020copie.jpg/

    Please share your precious experience and feel free to critique.



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb. 5, 2003
    Location
    Ballston Spa, NY, USA
    Posts
    234

    Default

    She certainly appears to be a nice mare. I am intrigued by Conquest. I wish Carlo had presented him to the AHHA. Is your mare registered with any registry? I'm not sure if he is approved by anyone. I saw that she comes from a Hanoverian mother line, so she does not have a stamm number.

    Who are you thinking of breeding her to? How is her temperament?
    Maryanne Nicpon
    Minglewood Sport Horses
    Ballston Spa, NY



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec. 11, 2007
    Location
    Montreal, Canada
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    Default

    As I said, she is registered Selle Luxembourgeois. Her temperament is perfect. She is not spooky and absolutely not an alpha mare. She did the "join up" the first time I free lunged her. And since then she has never tried to come over my head. She is curious and learns very quickly.

    Foals by Conquest can be registered Selle Luxembourgeois, Zangersheide, Studbook sBs and Canadian Warmblood.



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec. 11, 2007
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    Montreal, Canada
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    512

    Default

    No suggestions ?



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec. 14, 2006
    Location
    Quebec (Canada)
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    807

    Default

    As we spoke in the past, my guess is that your mare would be eligible with AHHA IF Conquest has been recognized or approved with them, and she would be eligible for approval (speaking into a Main Mare Book of course) in the registries you've mentionned that Conquest's foals are registerable.

    For other main german registries, as GOV, Hanoverian VB (or AHS), etc. Conquest would need to be performance tested (30+70 or 100 dt), wich I'm not sure he is. Or he must be approved based on his performance record. Wich is more difficult but doable.

    The mare side of her pedigree seems in order about stallions approvals etc.

    Your mare is lovely and she carries excellent bloodlines. She is eligible for MMB in couple of registries as for now, but I wouldnt bet on her eligibility for MMB in ALL registries.

    Then, the decision is yours. Does it matter to you wich registries or not? The bloodlines will stays the same, you just need to choose the stallion according to wich registry you want to go with.

    Best way to know is to inquire to the registry you are looking at (here it seems to be AHHA) and send them a scan of your mare's papers asking them if she is eligible or not to their MMB...
    Les Écuries d'Automne, Québec, Canada
    Visit EdA's Facebook page!



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec. 11, 2007
    Location
    Montreal, Canada
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    Default

    I already asked AHHA and they accepted her pedigree. She is eligible to the MMB. She will be presented next year.

    Do you think it is more marketable to stay within her bloodlines (Holsteiner) ? Is it more marketable to create a good jumping foal with the "flavour of the month" stallion no mather in which registry he is approved (understood that the mare would have been aproved for breeding in that same registry)?



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr. 2, 2009
    Posts
    285

    Default

    Nice mare, her pasterns are longish and soft looking and her neck is on the short side. I would watch that with the stallion. Because your breeding to sell, I would definately pick a stallion that is hot right now. You should be able to pick a nice cross. I had never heard of her breed.



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec. 14, 2006
    Location
    Quebec (Canada)
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    807

    Default

    So if she is eligible for MMB with AHHA, this would be my choice of registry, especially if you want to produce a jumper foal. Then, I dont see why you wouldnt be able to find a hot stallion who's foals are registrable with AHHA

    Go browse the AHHA stallion directory and have fun!!
    http://www.holsteiner.com/StallionRo...9Stallions.PDF
    You already have quite some Cor de la Bryère in her (through Corrado, Calando and Calypso I)... so I would look into an holsteiner stallion that doesnt carry this blood at all, or at least, too close in generations... wich is quite a challenge lol...

    Or you can go with any stallion of your choice, then get your mare approved with CWHBA, and ask for a single breeding permit for the stallion you've chosen for your mare. You'll have CW papers on your foal.
    Les Écuries d'Automne, Québec, Canada
    Visit EdA's Facebook page!



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar. 27, 2006
    Location
    Bethel PA
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    752

    Default

    while there is a lot of corde there i would not hesitate to use more. the findings in holstein is that it can show up many times close up without problems, unlike other stallions. so i wouldn't go out of my way looking for it nor avoiding it.

    couple of questions..... first.... what do you not like about the mare. what would you like to improve upon?

    second, with the sire not holst approved my understanding would be that she's eligible to be looked at as an outside mare (tail is all hanno). therefore it would be the same as presenting a tb, trak or whatever else. to be entered into the books she'd need to score 46 bonits or better, which she may well do. some outside mares this year did not. is this also your understanding?



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr. 8, 2009
    Location
    Auckland, New Zealand
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    Default

    The mare looks to be a good sporting type. I'm not too sure about her long, weakish pasterns in front. Her back looks a little weak too especially over the loins and croup. These things may sttrengthen up as she develops and muscles up. She does have a very good scopey shoulder with a really well set on neck. The neck is a tad short for the length of her body/legs but this is no big deal. Overall, she is a nice sort.

    Choose a short coupled stallion with a very strong back, good length of rein, and superb front legs and pasterns.

    How does she move? Regardless of the intended discipline, an attractive good moving foal is easier to sell.



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Dec. 11, 2007
    Location
    Montreal, Canada
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    512

    Default

    ne1 what I like less on her is her long front pasterns. I would not say I am concerned by the lenght of her back, but I would not want to cross her with a long back stallion.
    As for AHHA aproval, I understood it the same way as you do. Regarding Cor de la Bryère, how close on the stallion pedigree would be acceptable to breed to my mare ?

    Her back may look weak at the moment, but she was in a big growing phase at the time the picture was taken. But I agree it does not need to be longer... though it is strengthening with work. Her neck may look a tad short because of the angle of the picture.

    She moves very very well. She has freedom in her shoulder and a lot of suspension. She has a nice floating canter. She could easily win on the hunter hack, but I bet she could excel in dressage.

    Here are the 4 stallions (with no Corde) I wish to make some more researches on:
    LaMarque
    Cotopaxi
    Mezcalero
    Secret Agent



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jul. 29, 2006
    Location
    Nashville
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    878

    Default

    If she has such a nice temperament and trainability, why not train and compete her for a few years before breeding?
    That would do the most to improve her offspring's marketability.



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Nov. 27, 2004
    Location
    Netherlands
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    254

    Default

    My advice is purely based on the quality of the marline and when I take a look at that, I say no.(When your purpose is to add something very good to the horse shed in the US)
    If you just like it to have a foal and enjoy the view of the mare and foal in summer, then go ahead.



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Dec. 11, 2007
    Location
    Montreal, Canada
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FatDinah View Post
    If she has such a nice temperament and trainability, why not train and compete her for a few years before breeding?
    That would do the most to improve her offspring's marketability.
    It is absolutely my goal to ride her a couple of years before breeding.

    Why not can you explain your point regarding the mare line ?



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Nov. 27, 2004
    Location
    Netherlands
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    254

    Default

    A reliable predictor for succes in breeding is the quality of the mareline (stemm). Almost all top sporthorses and good inheritors descends from proven stemms. The dutch site Horse Telex has very good overviews from marelines and when you look for a mare you hope to see a bunch of good sporthorses and a few approved stallions. If I go to your mare's page, I see only 5 horses and that is not so much.

    http://www.paardenfokken.nl/family.php?horseid=252065

    So, that is why I wrote; based only on the mare line, the advice would be no.



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jun. 4, 2001
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    4,230

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by why not View Post
    A reliable predictor for succes in breeding is the quality of the mareline (stemm). Almost all top sporthorses and good inheritors descends from proven stemms. The dutch site Horse Telex has very good overviews from marelines and when you look for a mare you hope to see a bunch of good sporthorses and a few approved stallions. If I go to your mare's page, I see only 5 horses and that is not so much.

    http://www.paardenfokken.nl/family.php?horseid=252065

    So, that is why I wrote; based only on the mare line, the advice would be no.
    I noticed that the mare Wendy II doesn't have her dam line input into the site. I'd get as much information as you can and plug her in to see what more you can find out.
    "Sometimes you just have to shut up and color."



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Feb. 5, 2003
    Location
    Ballston Spa, NY, USA
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    234

    Default

    How about Quinar or Ariadus? I have experience with offspring from both of them and have been very happy with them. Ariadus will improve the conformation and both will give you jump. The temperaments have been really good too.
    Maryanne Nicpon
    Minglewood Sport Horses
    Ballston Spa, NY



  18. #18
    Join Date
    Dec. 11, 2007
    Location
    Montreal, Canada
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    512

    Default

    Ariadus would double on Accord II...

    As for now my AHHA choices would be :
    Cubito
    Cassini II
    Carpaccio

    I considered other registries too and really like:
    Giacomo di Cantero (Eurocommerce Berlin x Clinton)
    Banderas
    Balou du Rouet
    Couleur Rubin



  19. #19
    Join Date
    Dec. 11, 2007
    Location
    Montreal, Canada
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    512

    Default

    So here is a conformation shot that I took yesterday. She is exactly 2.5 y.o. on the pictures.

    If ever you have more stallion ideas, please share with me.

    http://img687.imageshack.us/i/beauli...ricaconfo.jpg/
    http://img690.imageshack.us/i/beauli...ricaconfo.jpg/



  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jul. 3, 2003
    Location
    EU
    Posts
    718

    Default

    Paardenfokken is a nice site - with a LOAD of black holes that nobody ever filled in. Just based on that one website you cannot draw any conclusions on the "success" of a dam line. I checked a few (Trakehner) families over the past weeks and ran into many where people were very keen on highlighting all approved stallions and SPS mares from a line and "neglected" to fill in sport horses, geldings with show success etc, that really tell so much more about a family.
    So, while it is a superb pedigree site, it is very far from comprehensive and like everything, needs to taken with a grain of salt.



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