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  1. #1
    Join Date
    May. 16, 2007
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    299

    Default Jumper Stallion Ideas for mare...Vineyridge??

    I have a lovely mare and I am trying to decide whether or not I am breeding her again next year. She gave me a gorgeous colt by Torino this summer. I have been thinking of using a warmblood/TB stallion to incorporate more American TB sporthorse bloodlines...ie the good old ones that are starting to fade out. Here is a link to her pedigree...
    http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree...31&maxniveau=6
    you'll note quite a bit of good blood in there already, but I was half thinking using a stallion with the Good Twist line thrown in b/c of the placing of Double Jay or using a stallion by or with Hand In Glove in the pedigree...and I am open to plenty other options as well...I love French blood, and my mare has the type of temperament and rideability that could accept a more difficult tendency. Had considered Jaguar Mail as a possibility...but like I said this is to get all the suggestions out in the open to find considerations I had not thought of before.

    She could use more length in her femur, a more elastic canter, and perhaps a little cleaner through the throatlatch. Other than that, there isn't much to "fix" about her conformation. She is big bodied, though, has sufficient length of leg for her body. I certainly wouldn't mind adding more leg to the equation. Here are some pics of her with Tiro (by Torino) not the best of her...she has the ahem... baby "bloom" look...and stood up properly, is much more attractive than these photos depict, but alas I was looking at the foal not focusing on my mare for these shots.

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/9761916...7621721319457/

    I'm looking forward to all of your wonderful ideas and suggestions!

    TIA!!



  2. #2
    Join Date
    May. 16, 2007
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    299

    Default

    bump



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec. 2, 2004
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    RocUSA's 'son of Turn-To damline' is Best Turn who sired Hand in Glove.

    I know, I have a Balta'Czar filly whose TB damline matches Roc's, her Turn-To line is Turn to Mars who sired Maximum Clearance who got exported to Ireland to stand at stud.

    I keep looking and dreaming ..... yummy
    The truth is what you can get other people to believe.

    -- Tommy Smothers



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr. 29, 2003
    Location
    Hartford, Wi. 53027
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    2,734

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    You might want to look at Ironrule, he is by Ironman but his dam was a TB. She was a terrific show horse, she did hunters then stepped right up into jumpers through level 8.She is a beautiful mare with a fabulous pedigree, topline is Zen by Damascus, a very prominent line that goes back to Teddy. Some of her pedigree is French TBs. Rule was national rs champion 3 year old in 08. He is very typy. He has a page on the Ironman website.

    Nancy
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Home of Ironman: GOV, BWP, RPSI, CSHA, AWR, ISR Oldenburg, CWHBA, CSHA, CS, and PHR.
    www.ironmanonline.com



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec. 11, 2005
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    Castle Rock, CO
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    Default

    If you are interested in TB lines - you should try Triple Twist for the twist bloodlines.



  6. #6
    Join Date
    May. 28, 2009
    Location
    nw ct
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    687

    Default

    special memories?



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug. 14, 2000
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    Clarksdale, MS--the golden buckle on the cotton belt
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    Much as I adore Zen and think Ironrule is a lovely stallion, one serious consideration would be the double to Raise a Native. His line is notorious for leg issues. Since Philosophie's dam sire line is Mr. P/RAN, and Miz Yenko's dam sire line is also RAN, that would definitely give me pause. But then I'm looking at the problem from the TB point of view where the inbreeding is so strong over all that a double isn't just a double but reaches far, far back into more and more complicated connections over time.

    With WBs on top of both the mare and the stallion the TB inbreeding tangle would be significantly reduced.

    There is not a single line in Zen that is not proven in sport. I was just wandering around some database or other and found that a son of Spotted Beauty (Dark Tiger by Nasrullah) was exported to France and is found in some very successful SF jumper lines. (Alligator Fontaine is one) She is also dam of Heliodorus, sire of Helianthemum who was the dam of Jet Run. Penny Bryn was also a super mare. Just a wonderful, wonderful mare family which happens to trace to the very great Black Duchess, dam of Bay Ronald and Granddam of Blandford. That branch of female family 3-o has always had the jump and passed it on.

    Ironrule's tail female line is 23-b. This is one of the lines that is British rooted and not very good there, but has flourished here in North America. It has produced many, many great sires and dams and race horses since Gallopade was imported in the 1840's. Affirmed was 23-b, as were Crozier and Fleet Nasrullah. One of the lines that shows up a surprising amount in Dr. Birdsall derives from the mare Adana, who is 23-b. Her GP jumper descendants come from several different offspring, so it wasn't just a one off lucky hit.

    The very first American bred horse to win a race in England was Prioress, out of the American root mare of 23-b.

    So Ironrule is definitely one that you should put on your radar.

    As to others--the Double Jay/Balladier lines let me think for a while about active TBx Sport Horse stallions who would reinforce the ones that you already have.

    You actually have Black Toney xx top and bottom in the mare. This is an excellent US line for jumpers, per Dr. Birdsall. Cornflower is a Blue Larkspur, who was a grandson of Black Toney; and both Spy Song and Double Jay were grandsons of Black Toney.

    If you were interested in a pure TB, Roven has some nice doubles for your mare--Sicambre, Double Jay, Turn-To--and most of the other really great TB sport horse lines in the US and the UK/Ire. And he's competed himself at in GPs. He's licensed KWPN, I believe.

    Both Jaguar Mail and Hoggar Mail are Hand In Glove.

    And then there's the TB Fred (A Fine Romance). He is dam sire line Double Jay, and he has produced eventers, hunters, and a GP jumper.
    Last edited by vineyridge; Nov. 21, 2009 at 06:35 PM.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire



  8. #8
    Join Date
    May. 16, 2007
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    299

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    I was just wandering around some database or other and found that a son of Spotted Beauty (Dark Tiger by Nasrullah) was exported to France and is found in some very successful SF jumper lines. (Alligator Fontaine is one) She is also dam of Heliodorus, sire of Helianthemum who was the dam of Jet Run. Penny Bryn was also a super mare. Just a wonderful, wonderful mare family which happens to trace to the very great Black Duchess, dam of Bay Ronald and Granddam of Blandford. That branch of female family 3-o has always had the jump and passed it on.

    Ironrule's tail female line is 23-b. This is one of the lines that is British rooted and not very good there, but has flourished here in North America. It has produced many, many great sires and dams and race horses since Gallopade was imported in the 1840's. Affirmed was 23-b, as were Crozier and Fleet Nasrullah. One of the lines that shows up a surprising amount in Dr. Birdsall derives from the mare Adana, who is 23-b. Her GP jumper descendants come from several different offspring, so it wasn't just a one off lucky hit.

    The very first American bred horse to win a race in England was Prioress, out of the American root mare of 23-b.

    So Ironrule is definitely one that you should put on your radar.

    As to others--the Double Jay/Balladier lines let me think for a while about active TBx Sport Horse stallions who would reinforce the ones that you already have.

    You actually have Black Toney xx top and bottom in the mare. This is an excellent US line for jumpers, per Dr. Birdsall. Cornflower is a Blue Larkspur, who was a grandson of Black Toney; and both Spy Song and Double Jay were grandsons of Black Toney.

    If you were interested in a pure TB, Roven has some nice doubles for your mare--Sicambre, Double Jay, Turn-To--and most of the other really great TB sport horse lines in the US and the UK/Ire. And he's competed himself at in GPs. He's licensed KWPN, I believe.

    Both Jaguar Mail and Hoggar Mail are Hand In Glove.

    And then there's the TB Fred (A Fine Romance). He is dam sire line Double Jay, and has produced eventers, hunters, and a GP jumper.

    Viney! You are a find! Thank you for such a detailed account! How do you think Silver Twist would be as a cross with this mare?? Abdullah/Good Twist/Heliodorus/Prince Gallant?? Helianthemum is the 2nd maternal grand dam. He is 20 miles away from my farm so that is definitely a plus in making things easy, but both he and she are a little thick through the throatlatch. I'm not married to ease, just a side benefit.

    Roven, that is an interesting one. Where does he stand?

    Alligator Fontaine is an idea...what about Knock Wood? I feel IronRule is more of a hunter sire, but he is gorgeous and he and my mare are very, very similar in type, so certainly it would make the chances of getting that type more likely.

    Pony grandma, I love RocUSA as well. He is definitely a consideration.

    EquineLvr, Thank you for the idea of Triple Twist...a little leary as he has only produced 2 or 3 babies yet. But interesting pedigree for certain!

    Tucktaway, I'll have to look at Special Memories closer again. I know Brullemail was excited by him. They are the French agent for him (I think...I cannot imagine they would export him to France)

    Thanks everyone for your suggestions so far!



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug. 14, 2000
    Location
    Clarksdale, MS--the golden buckle on the cotton belt
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    I found this news blurb on the SBS website:
    High Special is a 2008 colt by the Trekehner stallion Special Memories and out of a Friedensfurst mare. This handsome colt is the first foal by Special Memories born in
    Germany using semen frozen by SBS Maryland. High Special was invited to the Elite Foal Auction in Hanover, Germany, and tied for the second highest selling foal. The proud new owner is Burkhard Wahler who owns the famous stud farm, Klosterhof
    Medigen, which stands such influential stallions as Caprimond and Hohenstein.

    Special Memories, an accomplished Grand Prix jumper like his sire Abdullah, is owned by Dorothy Rowland of Touchstone Valley Farm, in Upperco, MD. Both Special Memories’ and Abdullah’s semen was frozen by Select Breeders Services in Maryland. Dorothy and her daughter Jackie continue to manage Special Memories’ breedings and are very pleased with High Special and the “small, but exciting, first crop in Germany!”
    On the Knock Wood possibilities, you not only have Double Jay/Balladier/Black Toney in the damsire line of Cool Twist, but you also have a daughter of Black Toney in the tail female line, along with Spy Song in the middle (gotta say that I LOVE Spy Song, but then, I have one ). You also have all three of the foundation sires well represented in the five generation pedigree. You've got multiple Herod lines and Matchem lines through War Admiral and Great War. In addition you would have lines to the other living Matchem line (Marco) through Omayya and Hurry On. Most of these are doubled in your mare; the Hurry On through Furioso, and the Fair Plays and tons of Black Toneys.

    The Herod comes in through both of his branches--The Le Sancy/Roi Herode/The Tetrarch line and the Dollar line. The Dollar line is doubled through Bonne Cause, the daughter of Elf (a great jumping horse progenitor) in New Twist. The Dollar line is also the sire line of Ksar, and he is probably the most prolific sport horse TB sire line ever--except for Bonne Nuit in the US. The lovely thing about this is that Roi Dagobert has a line to Elf in his tail female family.

    Count Fleet was a well recognized line for International GP jumpers in the glory days of the USET riding TBs.

    So given all this, I'd say that Knock Wood would be an excellent cross with the TB lines in your mare. In fact, I really like all the linebreeding to great TB jumping lines in the back part of the pedigree.

    Silver Twist would add a double to Turn-To to the foal, which would probably be a good thing, but his top and bottom don't tie as tightly together with your mare's top and bottom as Knock Wood. On the other hand, Knock Wood doesn't have Helianthemum as third dam. A lot of the other lines are the same in both stallions amd offer the same potential, thanks to Good Twist.

    Roven--
    http://www.team-nijhof.nl/site/html_...n/rovenxx.html

    Found this NZ article mentioning Knock Wood.
    http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/warmblood...ncais-nz.shtml
    Last edited by vineyridge; Nov. 21, 2009 at 07:22 PM.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec. 11, 2005
    Location
    Castle Rock, CO
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    You may also want to look at Sea Accounts..

    Two others are French Buffet xx and Lotus T
    Last edited by EquineLVR; Nov. 21, 2009 at 07:32 PM.



  11. #11
    Join Date
    May. 16, 2007
    Posts
    299

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    Viney, THANK YOU!!! I'm really liking the idea of Knock Wood. Now I just need to find pics and chat with his owner...is he still competing?

    Roven is quite nice as well...ahh the possibilities!

    Equine Lvr--I haven't looked at French Buffet in some time...I'll look at him closer as well. Thanks



  12. #12
    Join Date
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    You can see pictures of Knock Wood's two young NZ eventer sons on the Clifton website here: http://www.cliftoneventers.com/ The two are Clifton BeeGee and Clifton Zander, and there are photos and videos of both under The Horses. But according to someone who has posted here, his other New Zealand foals are pointed at jumping, not eventing.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
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  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jul. 18, 2004
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    244

    Default jumper stallion suggestions

    Our stallion, Equinox, is by Torino out of Summers Day, a Branco (Ramiro)/TB mare. See him at www.serenityfarmsinc.com

    We are doing dressage at the moment with him for training as he is young as well as to complete his stallion requirements. However, his true talent is as a jumper which is where he will end up (showing as a jumper). He scored 87% for jumping at his stallion approvals.

    Wendy



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