[YankeeLawyer]

However anyone who seriously thinks that the FEI are watching a bulletin board for the opinion of what is predominently just a load of anonymous folks with silly user names needs to arrange an appointment with a health care professional.

Actually, you might be surprised at who reads these boards from time to time.

[Thomas_1]

I'd never be surprised.

But I'd be prepared to bet you that there's no one watching it because they're thinking of developing their management strategy.

[Bats79]

The way the debate went

What debate? So far there has only been discussion on forums where people are entitiled to their own opinion, a few petitions and an actual letter from the president of the BHSA - Good for them.

with the "abuse!" cries and threats to the fellow in the video

Of the people I know who are anti-rollkur not ONE would consider threatening P Kittel. Who has threatened him? Have charges been bought or the persons identified? People that far on the extreme are going to be just as p**ed off by the fact that he was photographed in a fur coat than his training style.

and the hunt for any other picture or video that even hits to RK to call "see, abuse!", it does paint a scary picture of those pushing their anti RK agenda.

Please show me the threads and links that point to any "overbent horse" that then refer to it as abuse.

I consider haughty comments about RK, when we just don't have all the information about this we should have to make them, to be less than informed.
I think that RK is being dismissed by many as guilty before it had a chance to prove if it may be innocent after all, which it may or not be.

Please tell me how you expect these studies to be conducted. How about a double blind with 10 identical horses trained to grand prix over a 6 year period without rollkur and 10 horses with. These horses will all be regulary scanned and x-rayed, they will have physch evaluations and general health on tests on a 6 month basis and they will all be trained by the "expert" who is one of the few in the world who is talented enough to do this study. And who will put up the 10's of millions this will cost - and is waiting 6 years a fair process for the horse or the sport.

That unfairness is what finally brought me to this discussion.

I consider it unseemingly to take the ball and run with it, directly harming those in their way without a care, as the anti RK people have done.
Accusing before you have the facts in is not well received by most sensible people.
Witch hunt, mob mentality, those I just don't like and I will speak up about that just as forcefully as some do about RK.

Each one of us is entitled to our opinions, right?

And let us not forget that since Zenephon we have been able to decide what is GOOD for the horse and what is NOT GOOD without scientific proof. But now - to defend those who choose to train with rollkur we must have scientific proof to show that this method is unfair to the horse. How about they come up with scientific proof to show that it is. And you can't count what has been done by already identified sources that are linked to the proponents of the sport - they are biased studies for rollkur just as the professional people who have spoken out are called biased against.

If we don't have that proof then we are involved in a witch hunt, we only think with "mob mentality".

Thankyou for the thumbs down to my (and many other people's) intelligence and ability to learn and read what our horse's tell us.

[bort84]

And let us not forget that since Zenephon we have been able to decide what is GOOD for the horse and what is NOT GOOD without scientific proof.

Yes, I also feel needing studies to show RK is a nasty technique is unnecessary. There are a lot of things people do and have done to horses in the name of "training" that are determined to be poor techniques without scientific intervention.

However, the anti-RK people are the ones who initiated the "scientific" testing to show that RK is bad (as I recall). So I suppose that's why people now feel the need for scientific studies. Also, a lot of anti-RK people like to argue that RK causes long-term physical issues in the horse - in response, it's understandable that the non-anti-RK folk (to include those that are just on the fence, not necessarily pro) would like to see valid scientific tests showing this.

It's obviously highly unlikely, for reasons you stated, that we'll ever see a study that can be considered scientifically valid. However, long-term anecdotal evidence can be enough to get people thinking.

[Fixerupper]

However, the anti-RK people are the ones who initiated the "scientific" testing to show that RK is bad (as I recall). So I suppose that's why people now feel the need for scientific studies.
Also, a lot of anti-RK people like to argue that RK causes long-term physical issues in the horse - in response, it's understandable that the non-anti-RK folk (to include those that are just on the fence, not necessarily pro) would like to see valid scientific tests showing this.

[slc2]

I am not sure any existing tests would show 'stress' in a horse that has been trained that way for years.

Existing tests measure how accustomed a horse is to something and how intensely the exercise works his heart and lungs, not whether the training is correct and producing a desirable performance, whether it is unnecessary and some other method could be used, or whether it makes people uncomfortable when they see it in the warmup.

Science does not, except with rare exception, in and of itself support or create, ethics.

[Discobold]

Interesting perspective. . . <snip> . . .IMO the noise here is no different to the sound one of my cows makes when pissing on a flat rock up on the hill tops. In other words it's as loud as a mouse farting!

Sorry I didn't respond sooner. Unlike some people (SLC?), I have a job and horses to ride and don't get online often. You've got it - I was expressing a different perspective. We are entitled to different opinions - no? To me this has the "feel" of a lynch mob. Maybe I'm wrong, but the "FEI memo" that's being quoted suggests I may not be entirely wrong. I think your last two lines are very funny - thanks for the laugh

[Bluey]

Sorry I didn't respond sooner. Unlike some people (SLC?), I have a job and horses to ride and don't get online often. You've got it - I was expressing a different perspective. We are entitled to different opinions - no? To me this has the "feel" of a lynch mob. Maybe I'm wrong, but the "FEI memo" that's being quoted suggests I may not be entirely wrong. I think your last two lines are very funny - thanks for the laugh

Do enjoy your full life with work and riding all those horses that keep you so busy, because others may not be in their lives in that enviable position any more and you too, some day, may not be able to brag about it either.
Life happens, you know...
We should not judge others, unless we are walking in their moccasins.

I do agree with you, the tone of the anti RK posters was rather strident, the ropes were coming out, a figurative and maybe real hanging obviously in process.

I hope that, if threats were seriously made to that fellow, his family and horses, that he has hired some security for all.

[Discobold]

We should not judge others, unless we are walking in their moccasins.

Fair enough (and apologies if I offended)

I'm not sure I was "bragging" though - some days I would much rather not have to work Since I rarely post I didn't want anyone to become suspicious though I should have phrased it differently.

[Bluey]

Fair enough (and apologies if I offended)

I'm not sure I was "bragging" though - some days I would much rather not have to work Since I rarely post I didn't want anyone to become suspicious though I should have phrased it differently.

I know, "bragging" was not the correct word there either, but "the devil made me do it", sorry.

I think that some of the RK images are strange and people that don't know that much about training may think right off "how terrible!

I see much of something similar in the reining horses and I too, at first, was going too.

Well, it doesn't seem to be hurting those horses, as some are still showing into their 20's without any problems.
Of course, it is not exactly the same and many other factors come to be.

I do think that horses working so deep and to n hyperflexed point, seems as far from a more natural way of going as some other extremes we ask our horses to perform, like grotesque big lick steps, or racing at top speed, or... you name it.

I disagree that such is reason enough to tar and feather people over it.