[Vibrant]

Just curious, can you explain a situation in which it would be counterproductive?

I can give you an example! I have always ridden my 4yo in a regular cavesson, but I inherited a nicer dressage bridle than the one I was using, and it had a flash. My trainer suggested we give it a try, since he tends to be "mouthy" (chewing on lead ropes, grabbing jackets, etc.) on the ground and we could always pull it off. Rode with it a couple times, but quickly determined that it pretty much had the opposite effect to its purpose - instead of creating a quieter mouth, he became extremely fidgety, shaking his head, working his jaw, rubbing on anything he could get close to, etc. etc. etc. He *hated* that thing, and it was more of a distraction than an aid. Pulled it off, and he was back to his sweet, obsessively oral but quiet-faced self.

[kookicat]

Rue (TB, event horse) gets very tense and locks his jaw if I put a flash on him. He does not like them, even adjusted loose. Take it off, and he's back to his old swingy-relaxed self.

[Bats79]

No, it is not similar at all. You keep talking about NEEDING a flash or a drop noseband. The whole point of using one is so that you never NEED one. Get it?

If you don't NEED one why on earth would you use one?

If you train your horse not to have mouth issues why would you need something that covers up mouth issues.

In my experience, much, much less than Conrad Schumakers but all the way to Grand Prix a couple of times with horses I have started myself, every horse that goes nicely in a snaffle and flash goes BETTER in a snaffle without a flash provide the rider becomes BETTER as well.

No more "accidental" rough half halts, no more driving the horse into the hand for cadence, encouraging instead.

But then again, I might be an idiot too.

[Ajierene]

Just curious, can you explain a situation in which it would be counterproductive?

Similar to the other two posts, I can guarantee you that my mare would have flipped her lid if I put a flash on her when she was first started.

She would have gotten used to it eventually, but why spend all the time in the round pen with her trying to kill herself so she can open her mouth again when she does not need it?

Yes, she opens her mouth sometimes when we are working....when I use to much hand and not enough seat and leg. Without a flash, I get that extra clue that I need to adjust my riding. This is where Bats79 has a great point.

[Bats79]

Question: If your horse doesn't need it, then what's the harm in having it on him?

Which is more severe? A crank, dropped, or a flash?

All this tack exists because there are all sorts of different horses with different histories and different training programs.

As far as the original question goes, if the bit is sliding or your finding your horse gapping its mouth (and you know the bit fits fine), give the flash a try. You can always take it off.

What does it mean when the horse "relaxes" the jaw? If you consider the shape of the horse's skull it would mean that the relaxation of the jaw - AT THE HINGE - of 1 - 3mm would result in an opening at the front teeth of 10 - 20 cms at least.

Drop nosebands are designed to be done up at the nose where you can clearly test the horse's ability to open the mouth by giving it a treat - sugar cube, horse treat or oats. The horse can open the mouth, chew and swallow.

A crank noseband done up tight - and some of them are done up so tight they cause swelling by preventing the horse from opening or crossing the jaw also prevents the jaw from being released.

How can the horse relax at the jaw hinge when the teeth are pulled tight together?

Its too easy to forget that you are dealing with a horses JAW when you only look at the mouth end.

[kookicat]

What does it mean when the horse "relaxes" the jaw? If you consider the shape of the horse's skull it would mean that the relaxation of the jaw - AT THE HINGE - of 1 - 3mm would result in an opening at the front teeth of 10 - 20 cms at least.

Drop nosebands are designed to be done up at the nose where you can clearly test the horse's ability to open the mouth by giving it a treat - sugar cube, horse treat or oats. The horse can open the mouth, chew and swallow.

A crank noseband done up tight - and some of them are done up so tight they cause swelling by preventing the horse from opening or crossing the jaw also prevents the jaw from being released.

How can the horse relax at the jaw hinge when the teeth are pulled tight together?

Its too easy to forget that you are dealing with a horses JAW when you only look at the mouth end.

Great post!

[DieBlaueReiterin]

The meredith manor site mentions the flash being useful for preventing the bit being pulled sideways through the horse's mouth. I never thought of that. I use a leather strap that western trainers often use to link the two rings of a snaffle bit for that purpose. Though I can't recall it ever coming into effect, even during a big unexpected maneuver or the rare "stop damn you" pulley-rein situation. Seems like a useful safety feature, though, just in case.

i am trying to imagine a situation in which a bit could be pulled through the horse's mouth. (as defined, i guess, as the ring of the bit going inside the lips on one side) how loose would the bridle have to be in order for that to happen?? wouldn't the neutral pressure of the cheek piece prevent that?

[slc2]

No. When a bridle is well fitted, it still can twist on the head and the bit be pulled through the mouth. though definitely if the bridle is loose it can happen fare easier.

'if it's a horse it goes in a flash' was something I was told once. I thought it was funny. one of my horses had a flash, one a drop, and one no caveson.

[Gloria]

If you study the design of flash, you will see why it is a bad concept to use it.

First for a flash to be effective, it needs to be somehow tight. If it is loose, you might as well take it off. When it is tight, it creates quite a bit of problems.

1. The strap at the chin wants to rise up and the only thing to stop it is the bit. Now talk about the interference of the bits!!!

2. The strap wants to pull the nose band down. Once it gets pulled down, the strap becomes loose. Once it becomes loose, you will need to tighen it up more. See the vicious cycle? Eventually the nose band might get pulled down so much that it essentially becomes a weird looking drop. So why don't you just use a drop?

3. Worst of all, the strap push the flesh into the horses' teeth. Now push your cheek in and see whether you can open and close your mouth without hurting yourself, and then imagine someone force you to clamp your mouth down, Ouch. Now add insult to injury, equine teeth are sharp on the outside edge while human teeth are round. Can you imagine the ulcer that can form in the mouth?

No wonder those horses cannot tolerate flash!!! And others that simply ignore the discomfort.. Poor beasts...

[Ajierene]

i am trying to imagine a situation in which a bit could be pulled through the horse's mouth. (as defined, i guess, as the ring of the bit going inside the lips on one side) how loose would the bridle have to be in order for that to happen?? wouldn't the neutral pressure of the cheek piece prevent that?

Happened to me once. Eggbutt snaffle, difficult horse, more beginner rider, so using more hand than seat. Horse did not want to go to jump and kept pulling right. I pulled left so hard, I pulled the bit right through her open mouth.

That's the only incident I know of. That was in my first year of riding.

[Petstorejunkie]

If you study the design of flash, you will see why it is a bad concept to use it.

First for a flash to be effective, it needs to be somehow tight. If it is loose, you might as well take it off. When it is tight, it creates quite a bit of problems.

1. The strap at the chin wants to rise up and the only thing to stop it is the bit. Now talk about the interference of the bits!!!

2. The strap wants to pull the nose band down. Once it gets pulled down, the strap becomes loose. Once it becomes loose, you will need to tighen it up more. See the vicious cycle? Eventually the nose band might get pulled down so much that it essentially becomes a weird looking drop. So why don't you just use a drop?

3. Worst of all, the strap push the flesh into the horses' teeth. Now push your cheek in and see whether you can open and close your mouth without hurting yourself, and then imagine someone force you to clamp your mouth down, Ouch. Now add insult to injury, equine teeth are sharp on the outside edge while human teeth are round. Can you imagine the ulcer that can form in the mouth?

No wonder those horses cannot tolerate flash!!! And others that simply ignore the discomfort.. Poor beasts...

Great post!

[Nojacketrequired]

Anyone asking any poster to back up their million+ words is p#ssing into the wind. It'll never happen.

Eventually, over the years there are so many inconsistencies, back pedals and times they've lost the ability to keep track of their own stories, that it becomes obvious to long term posters that there is no substance to what they say. And there will certainly never be any proof to back any of it up. A lot of it is likely built on fantasy, hearsay, wishes, reading and the occassional lesson with a pro back in the mists of time.


MBM, I don't think it is that we are "bugged". That would imply that it just bothers us for a personal reason, or a dislike. There is also the concern as responsible amateurs trying to help each other on the 'net, that we attempt to warn newbies that not all posters can be trusted, even if they are incredibly voluable, and if a poster gives out incorrect and/or dangerous advice, report them to the Mods. When someone SOUNDS like they are speaking from on high on every subject a newbie canget sucked in. Especially when a poster is onthe net for HOURS and IMMEDIATELY answers them back.

None of us will ever stop those posters who want to seem like "All THAT and a bag of chips..", and there will always be newbies who fall for the guru who deigns to write them a book. And, in fact, occassionally these posters even have something useful to say.

You know that old saw about a room full of typewriters manned by a troupe of monkeys right? Eventually, they'll write War and Peace.

NJR

[lizathenag]

Seems to me when Miller's first had the flash noseband in their catalog (for hard pullers I think it said), it was so you could use a standing martingale with your dropped noseband.

I don't use any noseband at all. More tack to clean. Unless I am clinicing or something.

[purplnurpl]

If it's a horse, I'd use a flash.

ROFLMAO! That's a good one.

My grey horse goes in one because he is mouthy.

My bay horse goes in one because he is mouthy.

for the grey, the flash just settles him down and keeps his jaw a bit more stable--

for the bay, he is REALLY sensitive. If he wears a French link and regular nose band his mouth and tongue are all over the darn place. he's one of those that when you trot on a loopy rein his head wags back and forth just from the weight of the reins flopping to the beat of his own trot.

I put him in a rubber full cheek with keepers (makes the bit a little less wiggly) and a flash for bit stability as well.
works much better.

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

I just think it is hard to make blanket statements about whether any training aid is good or bad. Almost everything (with limited exception) is going to be right or wrong for certain horses because they are individuals and the people riding them are individuals.

I've used a flash and I've not used a flash. If the question is "when to use a flash attachment" then maybe the answer should be "when it is better for the horse."

For some of us that will be never and for others that will be always. Ideally we can present our arguments in a respectful manner and then it will be up to the individuals reading this thread to decide.

I just can't figure out what the big deal is, I guess. My only absolute is that I, personally, would not start a horse with one on. I've seen that go badly.

[egontoast]

On page one the expert said this

If it's a horse, I'd use a flash.

now, a few pages later, the coth dressage expert says this

'if it's a horse it goes in a flash' was something I was told once. I thought it was funny. one of my horses had a flash, one a drop, and one no caveson.
[RIGHT]http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/im...tons/quote.gif [/RIGHT]

Still more backpedalling by the expert on everything. Is it any wonder people point and laugh?

[redears]

3. Worst of all, the strap push the flesh into the horses' teeth. Now push your cheek in and see whether you can open and close your mouth without hurting yourself, and then imagine someone force you to clamp your mouth down, Ouch. Now add insult to injury, equine teeth are sharp on the outside edge while human teeth are round. Can you imagine the ulcer that can form in the mouth?

No wonder those horses cannot tolerate flash!!! And others that simply ignore the discomfort.. Poor beasts...

Do Figure 8's have the same effect? My horse goes bonkers in a flash (I found many years ago) but sees okay in a Figure 8 (which I tried because of the fleece on the nose, she gets sunburned). Now that it's winter I've gone back to a plain cavesson, but kept the figure-8 on my other horse's bridle because he tries to bite the reins or my clothes between the barn and the mounting block.

[bort84]

I just think it is hard to make blanket statements about whether any training aid is good or bad. Almost everything (with limited exception) is going to be right or wrong for certain horses because they are individuals and the people riding them are individuals.

I've used a flash and I've not used a flash. If the question is "when to use a flash attachment" then maybe the answer should be "when it is better for the horse."

For some of us that will be never and for others that will be always. Ideally we can present our arguments in a respectful manner and then it will be up to the individuals reading this thread to decide.

Exactly.

Seriously, it's horse training, people. Being flexible and able to think outside of the box are very important when working with animals. Some horses prefer a flash (some people may not believe it, but surely some horses out there do prefer it), some horses hate a flash, some tolerate it, and some work best in one but don't actually love it (come on, we ask horses to deal with a lot of stuff they'd rather not).

So, if it works for you, great, if it doesn't, also great. I bet most trainers that work with a variety of horses will be somewhere in the middle on the issue, using them if they work, trying something else if they don't, with some reaching for them often, and some reaching for them as more of a last resort.

It's really not that big of a deal, certainly not a big enough deal to start name calling = )

Also, @ egontoast, as much as you gripe about slc, I've noticed you are always right on top of nearly all of her posts pointing out some discrepency - though you are certainly putting a lot of effort into it, I don't think she's going to change, haha.

[egontoast]

Also, @ egontoast, as much as you gripe about slc, I've noticed you are always right on top of nearly all of her posts pointing out some discrepency - though you are certainly putting a lot of effort into it, I don't think she's going to change, haha.

Um, no, if you check our post counts per day you'll see that is just not true.

I don't have the time to reply to that many of slc's posts but since she posts on almost every thread multiple times, yeah, if I think it's whacky, I'll reply.

[Gloria]

Do Figure 8's have the same effect? My horse goes bonkers in a flash (I found many years ago) but sees okay in a Figure 8 (which I tried because of the fleece on the nose, she gets sunburned). Now that it's winter I've gone back to a plain cavesson, but kept the figure-8 on my other horse's bridle because he tries to bite the reins or my clothes between the barn and the mounting block.

I don't think figure 8 has the same problem but don't hold me to it. I have never exaimne a figure 8 closely since it is used more in jumpers not in dressage so I am reluctant to say either way.. Sorry.. Would be interesting to know though. I think I will grab one to examine closely next time I go to a tack shop.