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  1. #1
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    Default CDI freestyle on now at Royal Ag Winter Fair Toronto

    http://live.todocast.tv/template.ma-...mber=TDC-E1179

    I am disgusted to see that every stinkin' one of them is BTV with riders holding excessively cranked back angle on curb rein. I had better finesse with a curb rein when I was 10 years old for pete's sake. Dressage, as seen in competitions anyway, really has strayed far from classical principles. (So what else is new, rhetorical question). I completely understand why Walter Zettl said he 'cannot bear to watch dressage competitions' because he 'cannot bear to see what is done to those poor horses'. I was present when he said that, at a clinic a few years ago, and I agree completely.

    Correction! Tina Konyot was a delightfully different rider, only enough curb to get the job done, and Calecto's face was vertical, not BTV, 99% of the time. I am not surprised. I saw Arthur Konyot ride in exhibition in the early 1960's and still hold that vision in my mind's eye of 'how it should be'.
    Last edited by sdlbredfan; Nov. 12, 2009 at 11:04 PM. Reason: add commentary
    Jeanie
    RIP Sasha, best dog ever, pictured shortly before she died, Death either by euthanasia or natural causes is only the end of the animal inhabiting its body; I believe the spirit lives on.



  2. #2
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    Walter Zettl is no more saint or God than anyone else.

    I don't see the past riders as perfect, any more than I see the current crop as perfect. Horses get excited and strong at shows, things go wrong, different eras have different problems; a lot of curb rein is nothing new that came on in the last 2, 5, 10 or 20 years. I also don't see Tina Konyot as 'delightfully different' either.
    Last edited by slc2; Nov. 13, 2009 at 07:44 PM.



  3. #3
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    My personal idea of perfection (minus the outfit)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlLjuJSY6f8
    Perfection is not attainable, but when we chase perfection, we can catch excellence - Vince Lombardi

    www.thehomestedt.com



  4. #4
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    you know.... once you start looking there are lots of folks doing it the traditional way - keeping the fundamentals in mind and producing back movers....

    lets celebrate those folks and not lose site that it is possible!



    loved the Ingrid vid!
    Last edited by mbm; Nov. 14, 2009 at 01:48 AM.



  5. #5
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    Love Ingrid Klimke
    but it was a demo...and it is dead easy to get a horse to 'play' when you don't care about the details...her dad would have had something to say if that was a test!

    Now that we know what you revere...we have a better understanding...
    * <-- RR Certified Gold Star {) <-- RR Golden Croissant Award
    Training Tip of the Day: If you can’t beat your best competitor, buy his horse.
    NO! What was the question?



  6. #6
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    The Royal is one of those venues steeped in tradition, a lot of hype and can be very intimidating.

    The riders I know who have showed there have told me over the years the first time is the most difficult. Following trips get only slightly less intimidating.

    This venue is right in the heart of down town Toronto, lots of activity, lots of people and it is a big place.

    I believe there is an article from eurodressage, where Ashley states she was more comfortable this year, and it showed. The varying degree of partnerships, that didn't have as much experience with this type of venue where tested.

    I guess in the next couple of years we will see those partnerships blossom, and it will be nice to see these horses/rider partnerships grow.



  7. #7
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    I watched Tina Konyot ride Calecto at Devon, she had just as many faults and problems as everyone else. I especially thought the passage was very uneven with the rump bouncing up and down. The horse's rump, thanks.



  8. #8
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    I also don't see Tina Konyot as 'delightfully different' either.

    I watched Tina Konyot ride Calecto at Devon, she had just as many faults and problems as everyone else. I especially thought the passage was very uneven with the rump bouncing up and down. The horse's rump, thanks.
    In other words, you did not even watch the Royal freestyles and yet, no matter, you must share your strident and in this case, clairvoyant opinion anyway.

    Rollyeyethingy.



  9. #9
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    SLC2, what do you mean by the comment that horses get excited and strong at shows? I mean, I know horses can be fresh and spooky at a show, and I know the Royal is an electric atmosphere (I know, I have ridden there!) but, are you implying that it results in grand prix level horses going BTV? It is NEVER o.k for a horse at any level to go BTV, even when it's spooking or fresh. It's poor training and riding that results in over bent horses. I wish judges would crack down on this...but I guess if the feet are flying and the horse is expressive, who cares that it's nose is way behind the vertical.

    I registered on this forum because I wanted to comment on the rollkur topics. But decided I will stay away from those threads. I have actually been a frequent lurker since the day the forum opened...yes, a VERY long time. I am upset with the state of dressage today. Every year better bred horses come out, better nutrition, horse care etc...yet why is the riding and training methods (in general!) getting worse? I am not young, I have been involved in dressage for a long time, and IMHO the sport (in general!) is becoming disgusting. Yes, there are many AWSOME riders and trainers out there today, but there are far too many bad ones and they are overrunning this once beautiful sport.



  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olga Rose View Post
    SLC2, what do you mean by the comment that horses get excited and strong at shows? I mean, I know horses can be fresh and spooky at a show, and I know the Royal is an electric atmosphere (I know, I have ridden there!) but, are you implying that it results in grand prix level horses going BTV? It is NEVER o.k for a horse at any level to go BTV, even when it's spooking or fresh. It's poor training and riding that results in over bent horses. I wish judges would crack down on this...but I guess if the feet are flying and the horse is expressive, who cares that it's nose is way behind the vertical.

    I registered on this forum because I wanted to comment on the rollkur topics. But decided I will stay away from those threads. I have actually been a frequent lurker since the day the forum opened...yes, a VERY long time. I am upset with the state of dressage today. Every year better bred horses come out, better nutrition, horse care etc...yet why is the riding and training methods (in general!) getting worse? I am not young, I have been involved in dressage for a long time, and IMHO the sport (in general!) is becoming disgusting. Yes, there are many AWSOME riders and trainers out there today, but there are far too many bad ones and they are overrunning this once beautiful sport.
    You could maybe also say that, the older we become, the more experience behind us, our eye now better educated, the more faults we of course find.
    The change is not in the times, but in ourselves, our perspective.

    I doubt that riding is worse today.
    I think that there always have been some poor riders, some fair riders and a few outstanding ones.

    When we knew less, we thought so many were good, the more we learn what is correct, the less good ones we find.



  11. #11
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    With regard to the alleged effect of shows on making a horse excited, I thought it was very interesting that, during the awards presentation at the Royal, Tina's horse Calecto V stood pretty much like a statue, while the winner Pop Art was a whirling dervish not the least tuned in or attentive to rider's desires for standing still.

    In watching those two horse's freestyles, although Pop Art's performance was not bad in any way I could see, Calecto V had way more brilliance, suppleness and obedience in response to his rider. The only 2 things I saw Calecto V do that were less than ideal were that twice he volunteered a step of canter at points in which it appeared he was supposed to be transitioning to or from passage to some other trot variant. So, while no disrespect is intended to Pop Art, I thought Calecto V and Tina Konyot should have been winners, not reserve in that competition. It appeared that Pop Art needed more 'nagging' from rider on transitions whereas Calecto V was more instantly responsive.
    Jeanie
    RIP Sasha, best dog ever, pictured shortly before she died, Death either by euthanasia or natural causes is only the end of the animal inhabiting its body; I believe the spirit lives on.



  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by egontoast View Post
    In other words, you did not even watch the Royal freestyles and yet, no matter, you must share your strident and in this case, clairvoyant opinion anyway.

    Rollyeyethingy.
    I didn't see the Freestyle, but did see the Grand Prix test on Wednesday afternoon. Though Calecto offers much to admire, based on what I saw that day, his backend often swings wide in the corners or on tempi changes, and he seems consistently croup-high in piaffe-passage, Also, some rhythm problems that day - he did not show as fluid a test as Ashley or Danielle did.



  13. #13
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    Agree there on Calecto. He wins sometimes, but he has technical faults and is often over-ridden. I think he can be better, I think Konyot often looks like she hasn't quite figured him out.

    And 'more supple'? Than others? No. Overridden, the bobbing buns in the passage and the slanted backward (off balance) forehand in the piaffe. He DOES have a great future and he is an exceptional horse, but to beat horses that don't do that, they will have to also come out and not do that.

    I think many people have a psychological bias to that horse, one, because of the name and the big neck, they think he's a baroque horse rather than a warmblood (he's a Dutch warmblood), and because Tina Konyot's not identified in the press with 'those rollkur people' and since her father was a circus horse trainer, they like her better, it makes an appealing story to them....or they just haven't heard anything bad about her yet and she's 'new' (her 1st big FS win at devon 'new', I mean), LOL.

    Zang's comment on dressagedaily:

    "Tina has a very nice horse with a big future if she can just settle down a bit and allow the horse to be a little more relaxed and swing forward.”

    She said the reason for the bobbing heinie in the passage was pushing the horse for too much. The horse and rider are both wonderful, but have faults just like everyone else. Yeah he won at Devon at the FS. Yay. That doesn't mean it's perfect.

    Anyone who looks at a horse and thinks it's THAT much better than everyone else in THAT emotional of a judgement, where everyone else sucks and she and that horse are THAT perfect and THAT faultless and the epitome of the classical art and everyone else needs to stab themselves in the eye with a fork, needs new glasses AND some chamomile tea.



  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by sdlbredfan View Post
    With regard to the alleged effect of shows on making a horse excited, I thought it was very interesting that, during the awards presentation at the Royal, Tina's horse Calecto V stood pretty much like a statue, while the winner Pop Art was a whirling dervish not the least tuned in or attentive to rider's desires for standing still.

    In watching those two horse's freestyles, although Pop Art's performance was not bad in any way I could see, Calecto V had way more brilliance, suppleness and obedience in response to his rider. The only 2 things I saw Calecto V do that were less than ideal were that twice he volunteered a step of canter at points in which it appeared he was supposed to be transitioning to or from passage to some other trot variant. So, while no disrespect is intended to Pop Art, I thought Calecto V and Tina Konyot should have been winners, not reserve in that competition. It appeared that Pop Art needed more 'nagging' from rider on transitions whereas Calecto V was more instantly responsive.
    I guess that is why it takes years to become the kind of judge that can truly asses who is better that day, once we are talking about top horses and riders.
    No one sitting on the side lines can really say what the judges are seing and why they pick who they do, unless the judges make comments.
    The rest of us are mere armchair quarterbacks.



  15. #15
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    .



  16. #16
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    SLC2, what do you mean by the comment that horses get excited and strong at shows?

    I mean exactly what I said. Horses get fresh and frisky and strong in the bridle. Stuff happens. To ALL horses. The riders have to try to keep them from leaping out of the ring and running amok, farting and squealing like peegs. They're horses, not robots, it doesn't matter HOW well you train them, they get frisky and goof around. If they DON'T, they need their temperature taken. Reiner Klimke, often held up here as the greatest-classical-rider-God-non-rollkurist, had his beloved Ahlerich fall over on its side and sit on him, while trying to do an extended trot in, and many a time that horse confounded his rider with his antics. Same with Pascal and his Russian stallion. They're horses. Stuff happens.

    To everyone's horses. if they DON'T get strong once in a while, they're not coming into the bridle and reaching for the bit, if there aren't a few big honkin' half halts here and there, I'd be concerned.

    When a horse is 'behind the bit', the reins hang down. His neck is held in short behind the contact; there is no connection. It feels like riding a headless horse. One can not bend or stretch the neck of the horse, regardless of how one tries, and one can't get a connected feeling between the haunches, over the back and into the hand.

    I didn't see the whole GP FS video of the Royal Fair, but while I watched, I didn't see any horses that were chronically stuck behind the bit, with the reins hanging down in a loop, the rider unable to push the neck out.

    I expect it occasionally - some horses get that way in the tempe changes, even though they're usually more into the bridle. It can happen at points during the test.

    In a competition, as in many training rides, the horse is not having a perfect day, neither is the rider, the horse goes from too strong in the bridle to too light and not pushing into the bridle, most of the corrections in the training and competion rides are much more subtle and harder to catch than that, sometimes they are more obvious.

    Sometimes you bring a horse to a show and you warmup too much, or not enough, and the performance isn't perfect. That's life.

    And no judge, no dressage instructor, is going to sit there and say, 'Don't half halt, let him run away, let him run FREE! Fly fly! Freee!!!' We are not Frau Blucher here, lifting our violin aloft. We have to do something.

    When the horse gets strong, when it turns into a little freight train, we ride a half halt. If that one doesn't work, we ride another one, hopefully fairly soon in time frame. If he comes behind the vertical, oh well.

    We do not drop the reins and 'teach him a lesson' by letting him land on his face in the dirt, except in the fables written on internet bulletin boards. We half halt.

    When horsey gets stuck back there in not-moving land, we make some corrections. We try to push the horse out forward to the bit and develop some activity. Sometimes we do one thing, and then we need to do the opposite. One keeps adjusting and working it out.

    Even the best riders in the world.
    Unless you ride the horse all the time in a jammed up overdone position, and even then, you won't be able to do any transitions or extended stuff.

    I mean, I know horses can be fresh and spooky at a show, and I know the Royal is an electric atmosphere (I know, I have ridden there!) but, are you implying that it results in grand prix level horses going BTV?

    Klimke and all the classicists always say the horse's head comes behind the vertical in the half halts. Aside from that, I'm not so sure these horses all really ARE behind the vertical so much of the time.

    It is NEVER o.k for a horse at any level to go BTV, even when it's spooking or fresh.

    Oooohhhh! You're right! And yet it happens! WHY? Because horses and riders aren't perfect.

    It's poor training and riding that results in over bent horses.

    And yet, it does at times happen. To the best riders in the world. It happpens at the Spanish Riding school, and every where else. Yes it's a fault, but one seen occasionally in every horse and rider, and just one fault of many that are possible.

    I wish judges would crack down on this...

    Where you're wrong is that they DON'T 'crack down on it'. People very, very reliably lose points when it does occur. Just because it wins, doesn't mean it's perfect. You shoulda read the comments from the judge on the rider that won the FS at Devon this year. Relatively scathing, in fact. And it won. That doesn't mean it was perfect or the judge signed her name under every moment and said, 'I love this'. Sometimes it means everyone else jumped out of the ring. Sometimes the one that wins is the one that stays in the ring.

    but I guess if the feet are flying and the horse is expressive, who cares that it's nose is way behind the vertical.

    You'd care more if it ran out of the ring and sat on you in the stands, LOL.

    I registered on this forum because I wanted to comment on the rollkur topics. But decided I will stay away from those threads.

    Why? Not going enough your way? There's a variety of stances here, everything from it's abusive and horrible to it's fine and everything in between, and here, the monitors don't side with ANY side. Everyone gets to say their say, as long as they don't start scratching eachother's eyeballs out.

    I have actually been a frequent lurker since the day the forum opened...yes, a VERY long time.

    Your posts aren't any different from most people here, so I don't know why you wouldn't feel free to state your opinions - all the 'the world stinks'-ers have lots and lots of company here, and you'll get lots of 'atta girls' from the other world stinkers. If you get off your self righteous high horse and stop the chest thumping, we might even have some interesting talks.

    I am upset with the state of dressage today. Every year better bred horses come out, better nutrition, horse care etc...yet why is the riding and training methods (in general!) getting worse?

    YOU say they're 'getting worse'. I don't agree with you entirely. I think some things are better and some are not.

    So you say it's so much worse - worse based on what? I think training is getting better in many ways, and not in others, I think many issues are still with us and many things are much the same as they were 40 years and more ago.

    I also think every era has its flaws and its strengths. I think the key for the thinking rider is to look at ALL eras without bias, and take the best from each one.


    I am not young,

    Probably not as old as I am. When I fell in love with Dressage, Karl Mikolka was a young man, and the 'Special Correspondent' to the Lipizanner Horse Club, which had a newsletter that included many children's drawings of 'beautiful Lipizans'.

    I have been involved in dressage for a long time, and IMHO the sport (in general!)

    So have I, probably longer than you.

    is becoming disgusting.

    I think it's very common for older people to see the past in a rosy glow, and to think the world is going to hell in a bucket all around them. The feeling sets in at about age 55, by the time we're 75, we're muttering and shuffling through trash cans saying the world is going to hell.

    I'll tell you something. Push your chair closer. The world isn't going to hell. The DRESSAGE world isn't going to hell either, and it isn't 'disgusting'. We have problems in elite sport now, just like we've ALWAYS had problems in elite sport.


    Yes, there are many AWSOME riders and trainers out there today, but there are far too many bad ones and they are overrunning this once beautiful sport.

    We have a problem with hyperflexion. 20 years ago, there were other problems. 40 years ago, there were other problems. There have always been more complaints and accusations in this sport than anyone even has time to hear about let alone fully research.

    In the 1920's the Germans and French were trading insults about 1 time changes - the French said 'c'est impossible', it's an amble, it's not a legitimate movement, and the Germans said, 'nya nya nay nay nya nay', you can't do 'em at all, can ya!' The IOC threatened in the 20's to chuck dressage out of the Olympics as 'unjudgeable' after an unbelievable judging scandal - but the worst judging scandal ever was perpetrated by an AMERICAN judge, not a European one. And the people involved couldn't even agree on the GP test, it wobbled around like a rudderless boat for nearly fifty years - tempe changes out, piaffe and passage out, in, out....

    We've always had 'bad riding' in this sport, there has always beenn judging problems, accusations of bias, controversy.

    The only thing for sure is that there are always problems, and the only other thing that's sure is that if people stick with it, it will get worked out. And we will move on to the next problem.
    Last edited by slc2; Nov. 14, 2009 at 03:18 PM.



  17. #17
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    Sorry, I just don't have time to read all that but I got the jist of it and , really, if you have not seen the performance being discussed you really can't judge it, can you, slc?

    Basing your opinion on what some judge said about some horse/rider combination at some other show is not really a fair assessment , is it?

    If someone else did that you'd be all over them with the usual high and mighty smackdown.

    ..and what's with the bolding and underlining and such you resort to now in your replies? If you can't make your point in normal type, virtual screaming won't help.

    The quote function is very easy to use even for someone with a chronic lifetime sinus infection.

    and editing to clarify

    I did not see the freestyles either so I have no opinion about them.
    I saw the GP but not the freestyles . Even so, I can't imagine crapping on someone's freestyle when I did not even see it !

    Guess who- backpedalling alert. Incoming.
    Last edited by egontoast; Nov. 14, 2009 at 04:02 PM.



  18. #18
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    It doesn't matter if they agree with slc2. It matters whether they disagree with Linda Zang.

    And some people didn't judge that ride; Linda Zang did.

    I think Linda Zang is a very, very good judge. I think she's one of the best judges around, in fact, and if she says that horse was over ridden, it was over ridden.

    Besides, I ALSO agree with Gribbon's comments. They are ALSO right, and so are all the others, it IS a wonderful horse, she IS a great rider.

    I think Zang would say they're right, in fact I think she has said very similar about the horse and rider.

    That doesn't matter.

    That commentary on that ride was Spot On. Zang is a tough judge, and so are the rest of the international judges. You don't see Axel Steiner throwing around points either. He would ALSO say losing balance in piaffe, over ridden in passage. All of them would.

    She placed the horse first at Devon, but she ALSO made those comments. That's the thing maybe people do not get. Maybe they don't want to, but it's pretty simple.

    A horse can win, a horse and rider can be SUPER, and they can be a pleasure to watch, they can be all those things...and still lose points on specific things that can be improved.

    I think he should have won too, and I'm glad he did, but I think the comments Zang made were right on the money.

    And I STILL don't think the foreleg slanted back in the piaffe and the bobbing heinie is desirable or correct. I DO think Zang was right the horse needs to flow more forward as well. I also think Tina Konyot is plenty up to making those adjustments and raising the horse's scores even more, and doing very well with him. She never failed to do that in the past.

    But this is my whole point. They all make mistakes, they all have little imperfections and things they're working on. They're still great riders, great horses, at the top of the elite in the US and eventually we can hope, in the world.

    To just put blinders on and start beating the chest that they're perfect and everyone else sucks is like the earlier poster did - i think it's silly.

    That's what you're missing, theo. Mostly because you want to, I guess, so you can have someone to pick at.

    What I was disagreeing with and commenting on is the blind eyed chest beating that 'He's perfect and the rest of them all suck! Konyot is a beacon of truth and the rest suck!' as the earlier poster did. To trash all the others so emotionally and react that way, I think that's silly.
    Last edited by slc2; Nov. 14, 2009 at 07:40 PM.



  19. #19
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    Thumbs down

    Another wild cow chase.

    Linda Zang was not judging at the Royal! I've got the individual judges' scores in front of me. The judges were Stephen Clarke, Lorraine MacDonald, Gary Rockwell, Gabriel Amando and Cara Whitham.

    What does Linda Zang's comments about TK's ride at Devon have to do with TK's ride at the Royal?

    Why bother to have judged shows-just apply the judges' comments from some earlier show. Weird.

    Last edited by egontoast; Nov. 14, 2009 at 09:56 PM. Reason: added names of judges



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