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  1. #1
    Join Date
    May. 7, 2009
    Posts
    33

    Default Unregistered Mare .. plan to breed

    Friend is exploring breeding mare

    I have a mare whom I would like to breed. I purchased her a few years ago to be an upper level event horse and we are having a great time, in the ribbons consistently. My mare truly has it all .... Uphill, floating gaits, amazing scope over fences, PERFECT conformation and bone density, fantastic temperament; honestly a breeders dream broodmare, (put on the hip boots or take off the rose colored sunglasses!) My work situation and school is changing over the next 2 years and I feel this is my opportunity to breed my mare

    My dilemma::: NO PAPERS!! I do not know a whole lot about breeding but I have been doing a lot of reading, have good contacts with those that do breed and are willing to work with me and I have an excellent repro vet.
    I have been searching for stallions to breed my mare to. I have realized a lot of the really fancy upper level stallions are being bred to approved mares only. The application forms ask for the pedigree and Registry that the Mare belongs too. I only have hearsay on my mares background before she came to the “States,” I only have strong ideas on what her lines might be, with a stronger idea on at least on the DAM side. Dam was a Hanoverian / TB cross, the TB side goes back to ? Spruce Needle. To say the least its very frustrating trying to find out about her lines / breeding.

    Anyways, how would you go about breeding her to one of these "known" registered / inspected stallions? Am I out of luck on my top three stallions if I can not prove her pedigree? Can you work something out with the owners of the stallions? Do I need to my mare inspected by one of the Registry’s? If my mare is not Registered, I breed to an inspected and approved Stallion, can I present the offspring? I understand I can present the offspring if the Stallion is inspected and approved (? correct terminology) Any help would be appreciated!

    Thank you in advance!



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan. 28, 2002
    Location
    Alberta, Canada
    Posts
    4,562

    Default

    I had a pretty well known Canadian mare who's breeding was unknown....due to a dishonest trainer (long story)! Anyways, she was extremely successful as an A circuit hunter, and despite her unknown pedigree, among some of the wonderful stallion we bred her to, she was accepted for breeding to Riverman at Hilltop Farm back when they were only selecting a few good mares! All I did was simply contact the Stallion Owners and gave them the show record of my mare and simply asked for more information on breeding to their stallion. Every single Stallion Owner was more than happy to accommodate us!

    While there is certainly that unknown of what the mare might produce, if you're diligent in finding a stallion who will compliment your mare, as well as one who will improve her weaknesses and is a prepotent stallion, I would encourage you to contact the Stallion Owners and simply ask for more information on breeding to their stallion! As a Stallion Owner myself, it's always wonderful when a great performance mare has the opportunity to be bred and the Mare Owner picks your stallion!
    www.DaventryEquestrian.com
    Home of Welsh Pony, ISR/Oldenburg & RPSI pony stallions Daventry's Power Play, Goldhills Brandysnap LOM & Alvesta Picasso
    Also home to www.EquineAppraisers.com



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb. 3, 2000
    Location
    Nokesville, VA
    Posts
    35,080

    Default

    Six years ago my sister bred her UL (***) mare, Sportscar. Since Sport was bought off the meat man's trailer, her breeding is COMPLETELY unknown. She ended up breeding to Aberjack, but I don't think any of the stallion owners turned her down.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan. 21, 2003
    Location
    Charles Town, WV
    Posts
    6,637

    Default

    As noted above, talk to the SO's. However, IF you want to register your foal, you WILL have to present your mare. Not all registries will take an unregisterd mare, those that will, will put her in their lowest books. The foal, if a filly, will be the start of a 'move-up' by generations. Find some stallions that you like and see what registries they are approved with. Many stallions are approved for breeding with several registries. A horse can only be registered with one registry, but approved for breeding by many. Riverman, for example, is a Holsteiner stallion, approved for breeding with the Holsteiner Verband, American Holsteiner Horse Ass'n. ISR/OLNA, GOV and CWHBA. If you like a stallion, check the various registry's websites and see which ones will accept non-registered mares for inspection and see what kind of papers they give. You will want some kind of registration papers, rather than just a COP.
    Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
    Now apparently completely invisible!



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec. 15, 2005
    Posts
    3,294

    Default

    If you like Irish horses, look at the www.irishdraught.com website. If you find a an ID or IDSH (Irish Draught Sport Horse) stallion that you like, talk with the owner about breeding and how you register the foal. I think that as long as the foal is at least 1/4 Irish Draught, there is a way to register him or her with the IDSH association.



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr. 29, 2003
    Location
    Hartford, Wi. 53027
    Posts
    2,734

    Default

    I was given a former Gran Prix horse, but she had no papers, and no tattoo, and no way to find out her history. But as her show record was outstanding I opted to take her and breed her. Both BWP and RPSI will take a nice unregistered mare and they can go in the pre-mare books.
    Nancy
    Home of Ironman: GOV, BWP, RPSI, CSHA, AWR, ISR Oldenburg, CWHBA, CSHA, CS, and PHR.
    www.ironmanonline.com



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov. 13, 2007
    Location
    NW Louisiana
    Posts
    5,193

    Default

    You could also look at Andalusian or Lusitano stallions. Some of them have a lot of talent over fences, as well as wonderful gaits for dressage. Any foals that are at least 1/2 Andy or Luso can be registered with IALHA.



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov. 7, 2001
    Location
    Indiana
    Posts
    3,290

    Default

    Things will vary from registry to registry, but this is in general what will typically be the case.

    1. Even if you track down your mare's pedigree, if she was never registered her pedigree will be treated as "unknown" which is how they would also treat her pedigree if you knew it but it was an unapproved cross registry (like AQHA, connemara, standarbred, etc.)

    2. You will be able to take her to inspections, but in general will only be able, even with good scores to go in the lowest mare book available in that registry (significance, or not so much, of that below).

    3. Your foal will generally only be entitled to a "certificate of pedigree" as opposed to full registration with the registry.

    4. Most registries will include CP (certificate of registry) foals in any of the registries year end awards or intra-registry points or awards programs, but you'll need to check.

    5. A CP filly can usually be presented for approval as well and may "move up" one mare book based on scores. Most registries will not consider the male offspring of a CP filly for stallion approvals, and typically require at least three generations of registered pedigree for a male offspring from a CP mare line.

    6. A CP colt won't be eligible for stallion approvals within that registry. If you are gelding anyway - not everyone will agree with this, but IMO if you are gelding anyway, you are talking performance purchasers and most of them are not horribly swayed by the fact that a gelding's papers are CP as opposed to registration.

    Everything will vary though and for example, some registries will not require a mare to go through an approval if the foal is just going to be a CP foal and iirc there is an American Warmblood registry that does not require proof of registered parentage, etc. But I think this is the basic structure you will be working within.

    If you have a horse that is going to be primarily a performance horse, I'm not sure that having CP vs. full papers will make much difference for their value (did it to you with your mare?). If you are talking about a filly that would be a breeding filly - her value will be negatively impacted by not having full papers within the set of breeder purchasers. If you are talking about a colt that you would like to keep as a stallion and stand, it's value would be negatively impacted as well.

    Despite all that - if you have an out of this world animal (almost no one does, but just saying) there are sometimes some ways to maneuver in some registries.
    For example, Galoubet's mom was a French Trotter but he ended up approved for most registries bc of his outstanding talent. And mom (Vitti) could jump too for that matter.

    Another thing to realize if you are wanting to breed - finding out as much as you can about your mare's heritage is worthwhile, even if you can't document it to the extent acceptable for a registry to take your mare into their main book. The more you know, the better you can select appropriate stallion crosses. I know of a filly whose mother was registered, and was a premium foal. However, they never took the mare back for her mare approvals and then bred her. So the filly (now a grown mare) was never able to get anything other than CP even though everyone knew her heritage, even though her dam came from a line of premium and elite dams and even though her dam was registered and had been a premium foal. all the breeding info was still helpful for them, but these are the things you don't want to have happen to you and your foal if you can avoid it, so figure out which registry(s) you want to work with, make sure you know their rules inside and out, and talk to the stallion owners.



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul. 5, 2002
    Location
    Brookline, NH 03033
    Posts
    1,041

    Default

    Well, I am a stallion owner and get a lot of requests for people to breed to unregistered mares. I don't think it is any problem breeding them from most stallion owners point of view. The contracts usually ask for the registration of your mare so they can report it to the registries. I would agree with what is said about finding out as much as you can about her pedigree. That will help you compliment her bloodlines. Try to get the best you can for papers for the foal. Even if you are just breeding for yourself, you want to give the offspring the best options there is for the future as you never know what your situation is in the future.

    Kathy
    www.majesticgaits.com
    Majestic Gaits-Dutch Warmbloods,#1 USEF Dressage Sporthorse Breeder. #1 KWPN-NA Jumpers.Standing Navarone,Schroeder,Dante MG.VDL Frozen. Approval KWPN Han OLD RPSI BWP Canadian SWANA sBs SF Holst



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun. 11, 2004
    Location
    Still here ~ not yet there
    Posts
    6,439

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dance2thebeat View Post
    Friend is exploring breeding mare

    I have a mare whom I would like to breed. I purchased her a few years ago to be an upper level event horse and we are having a great time, in the ribbons consistently. My mare truly has it all .... Uphill, floating gaits, amazing scope over fences, PERFECT conformation and bone density, fantastic temperament; honestly a breeders dream broodmare, (put on the hip boots or take off the rose colored sunglasses!) My work situation and school is changing over the next 2 years and I feel this is my opportunity to breed my mare

    My dilemma::: NO PAPERS!! I do not know a whole lot about breeding but I have been doing a lot of reading, have good contacts with those that do breed and are willing to work with me and I have an excellent repro vet.
    I have been searching for stallions to breed my mare to. I have realized a lot of the really fancy upper level stallions are being bred to approved mares only. The application forms ask for the pedigree and Registry that the Mare belongs too. I only have hearsay on my mares background before she came to the “States,” I only have strong ideas on what her lines might be, with a stronger idea on at least on the DAM side. Dam was a Hanoverian / TB cross, the TB side goes back to ? Spruce Needle. To say the least its very frustrating trying to find out about her lines / breeding.

    Anyways, how would you go about breeding her to one of these "known" registered / inspected stallions? Am I out of luck on my top three stallions if I can not prove her pedigree? Can you work something out with the owners of the stallions? Do I need to my mare inspected by one of the Registry’s? If my mare is not Registered, I breed to an inspected and approved Stallion, can I present the offspring? I understand I can present the offspring if the Stallion is inspected and approved (? correct terminology) Any help would be appreciated!

    Thank you in advance!
    Personally, I would do it alittle backwards. First, you present her to the registries with the sort of book that will take her (ISR, RPSI are two that I know of). Bring a copy of her show record, which I assume is documented.

    If she is all that you say she is, the inspectors will be excited about her and score her accordingly. Put her through the MPT the registry offers (that can often bump her up a book or so).

    If she does NOT score well, then perhaps you can re-evaluate your breeding goals....perhaps you were more barn blind than you thought. Either way, it's always nice to get an impartial eval -- a "new set of eyes."

    THEN start going to SO's. First of all, I doubt any of them would have refused you in the first place, especially in this economy.

    But, either way, once you have "proof" that experienced inspectors also feel the quality of your mare is high, and you just aren't a loving owner, I would be 99.9% of the SO you talk to will be eager to have you as a customer...
    many will even give you a discount!

    Remember, good mares make their boy look good...



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Nov. 5, 2000
    Posts
    9,318

    Default

    Oldenburg (GOV) accepts unpapered mares into its lowest mare book (pre-mare book II). Their foals sired by Oldenburg approved or acknowledged stallions are eligible for full registration papers. The foals are also eligible for the Foal of Distinction award, but not the Premium Foal Award, and the colts are not eligible for stallion status. You can find more info at http://www.oldenburghorse.com/ .

    Edited to add that we had a super filly by Starlight out of an unregistered TB mare at this year's GA inspection. She was really quite spectacular and was given the Foal of Distinction award.

    Also, most WB stallions get so few breedings that the owners are usually happy to breed to a nice mare, even those that do not have registration papers.



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Sep. 15, 2001
    Location
    Queen Creek, Arizona, USA
    Posts
    1,446

    Default

    I would just call on the stallions you are interested in and explain the situation. I would think most would be happy to get a mare with upper level wins in her respective dicipline. I would wait to present the mare until she has a foal. If it's nice, she will get her better scores. You may or may not be asked for a performance record, depending on the stallion. But, speaking for me, a performance record in the mare is more important than papers, which we can help you with down the road. They will not get your potential boys eligible for breeding but will prove who your baby is. Despite doing everythig humanly possible, many people do not bother registering their babies. You are not alone!
    Lisa Coletto
    Standing Elite Hanoverian stallion, Cabalito
    www.pecannuts@aol.com



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Oct. 3, 2002
    Location
    it's not the edge of the earth, but you can see it from here
    Posts
    12,079

    Default

    I think Kyz has a good approach.

    I have a filly who is unregistered as I lost her dam at 5 weeks post foaling, and never got DNA from her. She is pedigreed back to the 1800s on all sides, but is still 'grade' as far as many are concerned.

    I also had a TrakX mare who was pedigreed but never reg'd--A *Malachit daughter out of very good TB lines, but no way to prove any of it. She scored high enough for MMB but only made Pre-book without DNA.

    So it's certainly not unheard of--even with KNOWN lineage!

    There *are* registry options, including PHR and AWS, on top of the others mentioned. AWS is similar to RPSI in that an unpapered horse will go into the lower/lowest books, but offspring will move up if an approved stallion is used etc.

    So I would start with maybe seeing what registries the stallions you like are approved with, and what their requirements are.

    A *foal* can be presented AWS without the dam being presented/approved.

    Many here will bash AWS, but it fills a need for registration/recording and tracking. And it has a better reputation in some circles or geographical areas than others. So take it with a grain of salt. My experiences have been that it is quite comparable to RPSI in quality and way of doing buisiness (recording of non-'approved' horses in lower books etc.) except that it's US based, not based in Germany. <kevlar zipped )
    InnisFailte Pinto Sporthorses & Coloured Cobs
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Bits are like cats, what's one more? (Petstorejunkie)



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar. 12, 2005
    Posts
    1,915

    Default

    Perhaps it might help looking at this from another perspective. You have a mare that you obviously like very much. You say she has huge scope over fences and good gaits but don't say how extensive her competition record is or how high she has jumped or how far she has gone in dressage. This mare does not have any papers and if she is brought forward for grading she will only be eligible for the lowest studbook which, in all honesty, is not valued by many people. If you were a buyer would you go and look at a foal out of a mare like that?

    I'm in a similar sort of dilemma. I've got a super mare too (although mine is graded) but she has an unfashionable pedigree for anything except eventing. She's showjumped to 4' level (held back by the jockey not her ability) she's hunted over the biggest country in the UK clearing hedges that were well over 5' high. She's been in the top 50 in the country at dressage based on scores gained over 12 months and competed up to PSG, schooling most of the GP moves. Yet I'm scared to breed her to a showjumping or dressage stallion because I don't think it would be easy to sell the foal even though the foal would have full papers too. Simply because her pedigree is not what people expect to see in a showjumping or dressage horse.

    So I'd consider long and hard as to what you want to do. If the foal is for you and your mare is an exceptional athlete and sound and has a great temperament then go for it! If the foal is going to be for sale you may find no one even comes to look at the foal because of the lack of papers and you might have to keep them till they are backed which is when buyers start to look at the animal in front of them rather than the paperwork which comes with them.



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