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  1. #1
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    Default Oliver Townend at Pau

    http://www.useventing.com/competitio...on=fei&id=2146

    Oliver Townend is riding Carousel Quest, his 2009 Burghley champion, at Pau this weekend (a mere 6 weeks after Burghley). Carousel Quest also came in 8th at Rolex this spring. This means that the horse will have done 3 CCI****s, including two within two months of each other, in one year.

    I really try not to pick at the choices of upper level riders, but I find this news to be rather disturbing. Am I missing something?



  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by KMErickson View Post
    http://www.useventing.com/competitio...on=fei&id=2146

    Oliver Townend is riding Carousel Quest, his 2009 Burghley champion, at Pau this weekend (a mere 6 weeks after Burghley). Carousel Quest also came in 8th at Rolex this spring. This means that the horse will have done 3 CCI****s, including two within two months of each other, in one year.

    I really try not to pick at the choices of upper level riders, but I find this news to be rather disturbing. Am I missing something?




    ....especially since he had made it publically known that:


    "He's quite a fragile horse both mentally and physically but he is a good horse and I am glad I bought him."





    He obviously feels that his horse has recovered enough to contest Pau.



  3. #3
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    I know, I know, but I have to say this, I say this conclusively proves that the short format is not as hard on the horses as long format, regardless of what the UL pros claim. The schedule for a horse is harder but the individual competitions are not nearly as taxing as claimed. The FEI and the pros got what they wanted.

    Reed



  4. #4
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    Boy, this is a very blatant case of point chasing with a clear disregard for the horses well being. 2 months between 4*s is plain ridiculous! When are riders going to figure out that these animals pour their heart and souls for us ESPECIALLY at a 4*. This makes me feel a little sick. OK rant over.
    Gwen Dean
    Area II YR Coordinator
    Lost Hounds HT Secretary



  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by gchildean View Post
    Boy, this is a very blatant case of point chasing with a clear disregard for the horses well being. 2 months between 4*s is plain ridiculous! When are riders going to figure out that these animals pour their heart and souls for us ESPECIALLY at a 4*. This makes me feel a little sick. OK rant over.
    This is what a lot of us think, but it seems the reality of the modern championship 3 day is different, and to Reed's point, less taxing.

    Allison Springer, along with a number of others, did blenheim the week after burghley. granted, she didn't get all the way around burghley, but she did get 3/4 of the way around...and that's a lot of work.

    Karen O'Conner just came in high at FHI on Mandiba, who also competed at burghley. some would argue this is more taxing than doing burghley and pau, since mandiba has logged a lot of frequent flyer miles and quarantine time in the process.

    the sport is different now, and it looks like we're going to have to readjust the way we look at competition schedules.



  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAyers View Post
    I know, I know, but I have to say this, I say this conclusively proves that the short format is not as hard on the horses as long format, regardless of what the UL pros claim. The schedule for a horse is harder but the individual competitions are not nearly as taxing as claimed. The FEI and the pros got what they wanted.

    Reed
    Ok I get that but its a freakin CCI**** not an advanced HT. I could see doing a 4* in the spring and one in the fall but within not even 2 months of eachother? come on!
    Gwen Dean
    Area II YR Coordinator
    Lost Hounds HT Secretary



  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAyers View Post
    I know, I know, but I have to say this, I say this conclusively proves that the short format is not as hard on the horses as long format, regardless of what the UL pros claim.
    Here in the US, a horse did two CCI**s just three weeks apart.

    From what snoopy posted it sounds like Mr. Townend owns Carousel Quest, which means there's no owner to put a stop to this.

    I posted a news article about OT a few weeks ago where he talked about having had to become a person he didn't like in order to succeed in eventing. In that article, he made it sound like that attitude was a thing of the past and that he'd changed now that he found some security. I guess not.

    And Mandiba didn't merely go to Burghley and then on to FH six weeks later. He ran an I and an A with Phillip Dutton in between.



  8. #8
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    Explain to me, AS A NONEVENTER, what the big deal is about running two 4* two months apart? I don't see from the outside how this is an issue. If the horse is in shape and trained to compete at that level, I don't see how doing them 2 months apart is a crime. If it's that taxing on the horse that they can't compete 2 months after an event, then there are even more serious issues with the sport than what's currently going on. I would expect in a situation like this that the horse typically does not have a heavy competition schedule and is only competing in the Upper Levels, not moving up and down like a lot do.



  9. #9
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    Mandiba did not complete Burghley.



  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by ponyjumper4 View Post
    Explain to me, AS A NONEVENTER, what the big deal is about running two 4* two months apart? I don't see from the outside how this is an issue. If the horse is in shape and trained to compete at that level, I don't see how doing them 2 months apart is a crime. If it's that taxing on the horse that they can't compete 2 months after an event, then there are even more serious issues with the sport than what's currently going on. I would expect in a situation like this that the horse typically does not have a heavy competition schedule and is only competing in the Upper Levels, not moving up and down like a lot do.
    Eventing is VERY different than h/j or dressage showing.

    In the "old" long format days, the conditioning and training needed to prepare for a 4-star was so taxing that a horse could only do one, maybe 2 in a year. Remember, during competition, the horse and rider covered well over 15 miles and up to 40 or 50 jumping efforts over an hour and a half or more.

    The adage used to be maybe 4 or 5 Advanceds in a year with extended periods off to recover. Even a 1-star horse would get a month off after competition to allow for recovery from the rigorous training and conditioning that preceded the event.

    Reed



  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAyers View Post
    I know, I know, but I have to say this, I say this conclusively proves that the short format is not as hard on the horses as long format, regardless of what the UL pros claim. The schedule for a horse is harder but the individual competitions are not nearly as taxing as claimed. The FEI and the pros got what they wanted.

    Reed
    Reed, how does this conclusively prove anything except that Ollie Townend doesn't put his horses' welfare first (which was pretty well agreed-upon long before he made this particular decision)?

    The horse, so far, has contested two four-stars in a year, which is the same thing long-format horses did. If he comes through a third CCI**** so soon after Burghley without being lame, I'm still not sure what that will conclusively prove except that he's one tough horse and his rider is a Richard.

    You're supposed to be the science guy, and the only study (that I'm aware of) on this topic says the two formats ARE equally taxing. I have not, sadly, seen a scientific study of Ollie Townend's Richardness and what that means for others (equine and human) in his life.
    I evented just for the Halibut.



  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by ponyjumper4 View Post
    Explain to me, AS A NONEVENTER, what the big deal is about running two 4* two months apart? I don't see from the outside how this is an issue. If the horse is in shape and trained to compete at that level, I don't see how doing them 2 months apart is a crime. If it's that taxing on the horse that they can't compete 2 months after an event, then there are even more serious issues with the sport than what's currently going on. I would expect in a situation like this that the horse typically does not have a heavy competition schedule and is only competing in the Upper Levels, not moving up and down like a lot do.
    Eventing is more akin to a marathon or an endurance race than to either of the other olympic horse sports. In fact, day two (cross country day) at the CCI level is/was traditionally called Endurance Day. Typically the amount of endurance training (trot sets and gallops) that lead up to the CCI is fashioned in such a way that the horse peaks at the CCI and then the horse is let down for a fair amount of time, precisely like a marathoner. You condition and train for said event and then you let down, including no riding for a certain period of time and then just light hacking...good for the brain and the body.

    Horse trials and CIC's are viewed as preps for a CCI, traditionally a horse did one CCI in the spring and one in the fall. This is vastly different from a grand prix jumper or dressage horse who is exerting no more energy from a local show to the world cup finals because the test is the same and the jump height is ostensibly the same.

    The distances are longer, the questions are more difficult etc. It is seen as a pinnicle not something you do one weekend and then again the next weekend.



  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAyers View Post
    Eventing is VERY different than h/j or dressage showing.

    In the "old" long format days, the conditioning and training needed to prepare for a 4-star was so taxing that a horse could only do one, maybe 2 in a year. Remember, during competition, the horse and rider covered well over 15 miles and up to 40 or 50 jumping efforts over an hour and a half or more.

    The adage used to be maybe 4 or 5 Advanceds in a year with extended periods off to recover. Even a 1-star horse would get a month off after competition to allow for recovery from the rigorous training and conditioning that preceded the event.

    Reed
    I know it's quite different, I have evented just not in a very long time and at a very low level and a good friend is an ULR, but I guess I just don't see how 2 months is not a long time having not really been there, but thank you for the explanation--that does make some sense considering the old long format.



  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeverTime View Post
    Reed, how does this conclusively prove anything except that Ollie Townend doesn't put his horses' welfare first (which was pretty well agreed-upon long before he made this particular decision)?

    The horse, so far, has contested two four-stars in a year, which is the same thing long-format horses did. If he comes through a third CCI**** so soon after Burghley without being lame, I'm still not sure what that will conclusively prove except that he's one tough horse and his rider is a Richard.

    You're supposed to be the science guy, and the only study (that I'm aware of) on this topic says the two formats ARE equally taxing. I have not, sadly, seen a scientific study of Ollie Townend's Richardness and what that means for others (equine and human) in his life.
    I gotta be honest here, Reed. I don't think this conclusively says that the short format is less taxing than the long either. The only study I ever read (and again, so, so wish I had saved a link or hard copy because I can no longer find any reference) said the short format had the potential to be HARDER on the horses than the long. If there was conclusive evidence that the short format was easier on the horses, that would actually be an argument IN FAVOR of the short format for many, but I don't think that is fact, in any way.

    Just because some horses are competing more aggressively as of late doesn't mean they necessarily should. Can doesn't always equal should and this these "go, go, go" schedules that many (not all!) riders appear to be following are somewhat new and we really don't know the long term effects, if any. Many of us instinctively feel that they aren't in the best interest of the horses. It is unfortunate when rider ambition, US coaching philosophies (Mark Phillips, et al), and the new eventing business model don't jive with what is necessarily best for the horses.



  15. #15
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    Damn right he's point chasing. He's in the lead for the HSBC (or whatever that bank is that is sponsoring eventing) bonus of a whale of a lot of money. 150,000 euros is nothing to sneeze at. He didn't ride Carousel Quest at the Europeans, did he? He rode Flint Curtis. You can be sure that he'll be a Rolex next year with one or the other to make his bid for the grand slam.

    http://www.fei.org/Media/News_Centre...w-21Oct09.aspx
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire



  16. #16
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    I wonder if the fitness required for a CCI**** has shifted more towards the show jumping side of the scale. With the fences closer together, and thus fewer "breathers" on course, will the horse have more of an anaerobic workout? Seems less like traditional endurance riding and more like a rather long, glorified, show jumping derby. From those of you who have completed a ***: how much more difficult fitness-wise is a CCI vs an advanced HT or CIC?

    After this display of horsemanship, I don't think I'd ever want to sponsor OT, or offer him a ride on my horse. If he's in it for the money, he'd best switch to show jumping. Or better yet, try a career that doesn't require a 1,000 lb unpredictable and fragile animal to be responsible for putting the food on the table.



  17. #17
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    It is a bit odd in light of the comment about the horse being on the fragile side. It is possible that there are horses that would be fine on that schedule. I think many of these people are crazy, but they often do this totally injury free:

    http://www.marathonmaniacsdb.com/Maniacs/Scorecard.asp
    OTTBs rule, but spots are good too!



  18. #18
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    Default Three Wishes

    Oliver T bought (?) him about a year ago, and had a fall (I think) at Fair Hill. I haven't heard anything of Three Wishes since. Anyone know what happened to the horse?



  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by polarbear View Post
    Oliver T bought (?) him about a year ago, and had a fall (I think) at Fair Hill. I haven't heard anything of Three Wishes since. Anyone know what happened to the horse?


    He finished 5th on Three Wishes at Blair Castle in the CCI*** a week before burghley this year.



  20. #20
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    According to British Eventing, Carousel Quest is owned by Andrew Cawthray.
    Anyhow, he isn't the only horse that completed Burghley who is on the Pau start list. Armada is aswell.



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