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  1. #1
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    Default Neumunster - Holsteiner Stallion Approval

    anyone going?

    stallions can be seen at: www.holsteiner-verband.de

    some of the great producing stams are sending sons from the younger stallions like casiro, and the old guard like contender, cassini i & ii are also well represented.

    there is apparently a nekton that jumps very well.... similar buzz to that of diarado two years ago.

    ne1



  2. #2
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    If wishes were plane tickets...*sigh*

    Cantus is certainly well represented on toplines, by himself as well as sons & grandsons!

    There is also a stallion whose damsire is Riverman



  3. #3
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    It seems like the Holsteiners are becoming a C-line registry.

    Linebreeding or beyond?

    Holsteiner experts, comment.



  4. #4
    ne1 is offline Working Hunter Premium Member
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    there are efforts to support other lineages which have died out, including here with the ressurection of the 'r' line, primarily through roller coaster. also singulord joter has been solely responsible for a recent resurgance of the 's' line out of holstein.

    there are two main 'c's... corde and capitol. while caution still exists in overdoing linebreeding with capitol, heavy linebreeding with corde has not given any significant problems. there are some minor breeding 'rules' which breeders in holstein follow (like not linebreeding to contender) but it is not known whether corde is responsible for the problems that come with doing so.

    that they have a predominant sire line should not hide the fact that the secret of holstein is its mare-base. the first letter of the name speaks only to the father and his father etc. the mothers come from many different lineages, as a look through the current stallion pedigrees will show.

    a common mistake here in the usa is the emphasis on the stallions, and this is one of the weaknesses of breeding here..... not just a lacking of consistent mare-line quality, but also a lack of both data and community around which these other cultures revolve, with the data and community feeding the knowledge and feeling of the breeders as they find the best way to use the blood they have. of course stallions are important and holstein is blessed with many of the best in the world, but it is generations of outcrossing as well as linebreeding the stams which has taken them to the place of success they now enjoy.

    stallions approved this year:
    http://www.holsteiner-verband.de/cms...181&idart=2749

    all current verband stallions:
    http://www.holsteiner-verband.de/cms...x=yes&pageno=1

    the rest of the world isn't about to stop swinging into holstein to get the best jumping genetics available. they've done it for years. a very good friend of mine who is involved with the kwpn-na said they felt pretty good about grabbing corland and indoctro and 'leaving the rest'. the feeling in holstein is that they do indeed have to sell some good ones.... they sell very many all over the face of the planet, but there are plenty more where they came from. other places do not have the secret..... the holstein stams.

    now, when it comes to the issue of many good mares being sold out of holstein.... then, yes, about that there is concern. some places have managed to get past being star-struck by stallions, figure out the secret and make off with some golden-egg-laying mares. about this there is concern.

    n



  5. #5
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    Default

    Any pictures or video of the newly approved boys?

    Several of the mares had a fair amount of blood.



  6. #6
    ne1 is offline Working Hunter Premium Member
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    absolutely they did! and it did it's job! but never from the bottom.



  7. #7
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    ne1, your position on TB mares is based on complete ignorance of how genetics work in the horse--or the human, for that matter.

    The mare's eggs do not ever contain the genetic code to replicate her in her offspring. In fact, the "purest" genetics a filly will get will come from her sire because HIS X is passed on without recombination. The dam's x is, in the main, a recombined mixture of HER sire's x and her dam's recombined X. All of the other chromosomes are subject to recombination, so they are also a mixture of sire and dam. The only thing that a mare will pass on unchanged to her offspring through the generations is the MtDNA. If that is what makes mare lines so special, then we are not breeding for physical characteristics that come from nuclear material, but for the extra nuclear bodies in the cell.

    And each egg will be different since it is formed in utero by the recombination process. Since one of the female Xs will be inactivated for a line of cells deriving from a "mother" cell, a filly will have part of her mother and part of her father while she develops, while a colt will always have whatever comes in the egg from his mother.
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  8. #8
    ne1 is offline Working Hunter Premium Member
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    with great respect for whatever proven theories you may wish to subscribe to, i merely, blindly and lamely persue breeding practice within a model which has caused the holsteiner mare to become increasinlgy sought after and the holsteiner horse to be the most exponentially successful jumping horse in the world.

    please have enormous success with your theories. i have posted in the past on the distinctions between breeding here and elsewhere. i post in the hope that uneducated breeders with a similar objective to mine will be careful to use all available information in their decision making, and give themselves the best likeihood of success with the bloodstock choices they make.

    and when the persuit of your theories can consistently put the blue ribbon in the hand of your horses riders in top jumping sport, i will be the first to congratulate. until then, your various other excuses for the failure of female tb lines to produce will have to suffice, along with your theories.



  9. #9
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    Why are two breeding fees listed?



  10. #10
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    ne1, all I'm trying to say is that when you put the TB on top, you are GUARANTEED getting the sire's dam's unchanged X chromosome in his fillies. So you can't avoid TB mare lines when you breed to TB sires. In fact, breeding for F1 fillies with the TB on top almost guarantees that you will a very large amount of TB dam line blood in the F2. BTW, the X chromosome is the largest and is believed to control skeletal muscle development in the horse. These days there is simply no such thing as a "pure" mare line in WB World.

    Have you ever heard of a Swedish jumping mare named Butterfly Flip? She's out of a TB mare.
    Last edited by vineyridge; Nov. 22, 2009 at 11:57 AM.
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  11. #11
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    Vineyridge,

    With all due respect, you are arguing the wrong points. Finding one or two exceptions to the rule is not reason to follow a poor breeding philosophy. Taking mares who where bred for another discipline and sticking them into a breeding program for another is just naive. Breeders must think generationally and they must produce a consistent product. As a studbook, you must have a way to control the quality of your product. This is simply more easliy done by tracking the mothers, as they can only have one foal year, as opposed to hundreds by a stallion. Additionally as a molecular geneticist I can tell you that many traits are sex linked, so transfer can be lost if the trait transfers through the opposite sex. As females only have X's, traits that are sex linked on the Y chromozone cannot be lost by accident. As a TB person you certainly are aware of the X factor. I shouldn't have to explain any further. Inconsistent results from one of the greatest runner ever. Who ever heard of a Secreteriat line, doesn't exist. If you only think about the generation you are producing then you will always loose to the breeder that is concerned about not only a sport horse generation, but a breeding one going forward.

    To take ne1's point one step further, The breeding philosophy that has produced Holsteiners (#1 jumping horse by percentages) has also produced the #1 Diary cow (Holstein), #1 guard dog (German Sheppard). It is also the practice that is used by all cattle and dairy herds in the US.

    So you may choose to ignore the history, but please do not recommend that following the model that has produced Holsteiners at the top of the sport "Consistently" as hogwash. It would not reflect well on you. As this thread was about the Holsteiner Hengstekorung, your bearing on this topic is not useful.

    Tim
    Sparling Rock Holsteiners
    www.sparlingrock.com



  12. #12
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    ne1 started the discussion when he said that TB blood was only good on top. I was merely responding to that by pointing out that when you put TBs on top, you WILL get the sire's dam's X unchanged in his daughters. Since most WB mares do have TB sireline blood, they will also have TB damline blood in their X chromosomes.

    As to sex linked factors, the Y chromosome is very small and essentially the same for all horses. There are very few places of variation. The Y chromosome passes unaltered (not subject in the most part to recombination) from father to son in a way that the X chromosome does not pass from mother to daughter--because it DOES recombine.
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  13. #13
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    You can't argue with or change the Holsteiner breeders who follow their "breeding mantra" (it's like Scientology). I do wonder who NE has bred that has been world class using this "formula" and how long she's pursued it. She (or he) certainly hides the identity -- even in unpleasant PM's pounding a point that's been made already. What about the stallions just approved, whose dams are by Thoroughbred stallions -- now the blood is on the bottom, albleit from the dam's sire. That narrow gene pool is going to need to fresh blood to keep it strong and successful. You may not want to incorporate Thoroughbreds, but alot of the older Holsteiners certainly don't represent the "modern" type that seems to be in fashion now. I think most "big" successes/'breakthroughs' have been with breeders thinking outside the box or not blindly following an established protocol regardless of the success. Thoroughbreds have certainly known the level of success that the Holsteiners are enjoying. That doesn't mean they won't again or the Holsteiners will have a permanent hold on it. It just means that even if your precious "data" doesn't endorse it, the talent is still there, just not being used. My opinion, carry on MacBeth.
    PennyG



  14. #14
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    There is an excellent article about this very topic that just came out in the most recent ATA magazine.
    Dr. Baird's law:
    In a voluntary organization, the amount of criticism one receives is directly proportional to the amount of work done and it emanates from those who do the very least.



  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shawnda N View Post
    There is an excellent article about this very topic that just came out in the most recent ATA magazine.
    Would that happen to be online anywhere? If not, how does one access it?
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
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  16. #16
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    Its not available online. You either have to be an ATA member, or you can purchase the issue from the ATA office.
    Here is a paragraph from it:

    In the female embryo, one of the X chromosomes is “switched off”—quite randomly---in each cell which evens up protein production in the cell. Even then, there is some evidence by genetic scientists that this “silent X” has some genes that evade inactivation. This means females actually express more genes than male counterparts. It is estimated about 15% of genes in the “silent X” escape inactivation and another 10% are sometimes inactivated and sometimes not, making the arguable point that females are more genetically variable than males.
    Dr. Baird's law:
    In a voluntary organization, the amount of criticism one receives is directly proportional to the amount of work done and it emanates from those who do the very least.



  17. #17
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    This statement from this article is exactly why you must control your genetics via your mares. If you only focus on the stallions you will loose. Trying to control the least constant variable which will leave the greatest variability out of the hands of the breeder. It appears that this article is only taking into consideration one aspect of how the genetics works. You simply have more moving parts with a F1 cross. This makes it much harder to not only choose the "Best" stallion, but it also makes it harder to choose the best daughter from this mare for the next generation. Please don't be confused with data vs. application of that data into a usable breeding technique. For instance:

    We know many choose to breed to Jumper stallions for their jumper offspring so when we choose the mare do we choose:

    A. A Reining Mare
    B. A Jumper Mare
    C. A Racing Mare

    The answer is obvious. So some here are advocating to ignore the obvious becuase there is more variablity in the genetics coming from the mare. I do not believe the article suggests that if it even touches on it. I would suggest that the statement from the article supports choosing a mare from a more controlled and homogeneous group to limit the variablitiy ie: Holsteiners. I believe this is what most breeding groups attempt to do.

    Tim
    Sparling Rock Holsteiners
    www.sparlingrock.com



  18. #18
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    You've lost me when you argue that Holsteiner mares, the product of an open studbook bringing in French trotter, tb, arab, etc. crosses is a more homogeneous genetic group than TB mares who are the product of a closed studbook for decades and decades.

    Whether you believe that the homogeneous genetic group has isolated for the right breeding characteristics for the contemplated activity is a different matter, but I have a hard time buying, without some empirical evidence, that Holsteiner mares are more standardized genetically than closed book tb mares. What's the support for that?

    I don't know that the arguments can be resolved, but the points that vineyridge makes (i.e., that you can't use a tb stallion and claim to be following "only blood on top" theory since that stallion, by definition, has blood from his damline as well and passes that X chromosome to his daughters, etc.) are pretty hard science.

    While the Holsteiner stats are pretty irrefutable as well, relying on them is a bit pseudoscience, since no one has really done with a geographic based tb mare group what was done with the Holstein mares. Some tbs are used for sporthorse breeding, but there's been no generaation, geographic, industry based approach attempting to generate equine jumping athletes on a par with efforts in the Holstein and Dutch books with their geographic mare bases.

    That's why you can't resolve the stats question and nothing is going to change that in the near future so the issue isn't going to be able to be resolved.



  19. #19
    ne1 is offline Working Hunter Premium Member
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    i get as far as i need to into the genetic science but you're right in saying the science backing the claims is less than solid.

    holsteiner breeders are not looking to satisfy the scientific community or theories which may be well established. they do, however, satisfy the jumping-horse-buying public.

    i have a herd of angus cattle and to an extent hosteiner breeding follows the same principles, but at a point they diverge. with the cattle there are literally millions of data samples (individual cattle) documented and upon which the numbers are run and trends can be found this way. dutch breeding protocols are leaning in this direction, with some success. however, for the few good ones the dutch are making, they are still making many more 'other' horses, exponentially, than other breeds like that in holstein. this is a part of the issue tom reed raises in his current blog for horse international, in which there is a call for studbook rankings to be quantified. failure to do this serves no one but the wholesale breeder and kicks smaller, higher quality jumping breeding operations, like zangershede, in the teeth.

    the difference in holstein, as unsatisfying as the answer may be, is the breeding community. it is the intimate local knowledge of how the different farmers mares individually breed. i'm uncertain as to whether you might be able to lay some scientific template over that in order to capture and recreate the value that exists, but i choose not to bother, but rather to develop and maintain relationships there and attempt to grow my own knowledge and feeling for the blood.

    there is a large part of this 'feeling for the blood' which will, i believe, not be scientifically substantiable, other than perhaps in retrospect. while this may be true for other breeds as well, holstein is a particularly small breed; the smallest warmblood breed in europe according to foals born annually.

    they have been successful with their approach. frankly the discussion of what it is that they DO do which succeeds is much more edifying than the ongoing attempt to get through to folks here the validity of what they DON'T do. but its hard to get to the algebra when the abc's are consistently rebutted as somehow nonsensical.



  20. #20
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    Homogeneous in the sense of Jumping genetics, TB are certainly more homogeneous, but not for jumping. We are discussing breeding philosophies. When you breed a TB mare to a Holsteiner stallion, you have introduced an enourmous amount of variability.

    So as you say, decades and decades. I would go as far as to say centuries. So after Centuries of TB breeding, where are all of the TB jumpers at the top of the sport? Where are all of the half breds out of TB at the top of the sport. The fact is there is plenty of data to settle the debate. Whether you look at USEF information or WBFSH information, where are the TB's? The data certainly points to another breed other then TB's, and if you so whole heartedly believe in the TB, why not breed your TB mare to a TB stallion? Don't say money, because there are plent of TB stallions that are inexpensive to breed to. I will answer for you, because breeding to the Holsteiner stallion produces a better jumper then breeding to TB or would otherwise not be done. As a matter of fact, when following the Holsteiner model, Holsteiner mares are bred to TB's or AA to produce a breeding animal. I can ask the same question about those half breds too, where are they at the top of the sport? I don't meant one or two, I mean at any significant number.

    I will leave you with one final point, HUNDREDS of thousands of TB's are born every year. Only about 8000 holsteiner foals are born every year. The difference of magnitude is stunning. For your argument to hold ANY water, I would expect TB or Halfbreds to be at least in the top 3 catagorie. They aren't even a blip. So if I were a betting man, and looked at all of these breeding books/philosophies, I wouldn't even look at a TB mare as an option for producing a jumper at the top of the sport. There is so much evidence to the contrary it is astonishing that we are even having this discussion. I am certainly happy to discuss genetics with you, as that is my background, but it should be done with us agreeing on the obvious.

    Tim
    Last edited by RyTimMick; Nov. 23, 2009 at 02:05 PM.
    Sparling Rock Holsteiners
    www.sparlingrock.com



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