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  1. #1
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    Jun. 11, 2006
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    Berryville, VA
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    Unhappy OCD In Foals

    OK, hopefully I'm freaking out over nothing. I'm having two weanlings vetted out next week at a very well-known practice. They are taking films on both. From what I've heard, many young foals have lesions that disappear by the time they are three. Is this correct? Knock on wood, I have NEVER had a foal with OCD and most of the foals we sell are vetted out. I don't know why I'm so stressed (other that I'm pregnant and very hormonal). I really, really want this buyer to get both of these foals because it is a show home that will truly promote these guys on the circuit.
    Boarding for Show, Pleasure, and Retirement horses. www.LockeMeadows.com



  2. #2
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    Apr. 29, 2005
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    Paris, Kentucky
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    Default

    How old???

    It has been said on here 1000 times. Unless there is heat, swelling or lameness, DON'T x ray foals.

    WHY?

    1st, there are about 10 vets in the entire country qualified to look at growthplate films of warmbloods. If, you find one of them and IF the films are taken on high quality digital, you MIGHT have a true picture.

    2nd, foals don't necessarily grow evenly, even if there is nothing wrong.

    3rd, the x rays that you take today are useles in as little as two weeks of growth.
    Holly
    www.ironhorsefrm.com
    Oldenburg foals and young prospects
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  3. #3
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    Feb. 7, 2002
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    UNITED STATES
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    Default I agree

    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Horse Farm View Post
    How old???

    It has been said on here 1000 times. Unless there is heat, swelling or lameness, DON'T x ray foals.

    WHY?

    1st, there are about 10 vets in the entire country qualified to look at growthplate films of warmbloods. If, you find one of them and IF the films are taken on high quality digital, you MIGHT have a true picture.

    2nd, foals don't necessarily grow evenly, even if there is nothing wrong.

    3rd, the x rays that you take today are useles in as little as two weeks of growth.
    I agree with Holly.
    *Better to have loved than to have never loved at all.*
    ALWAYS Blessings NEVER losses.



  4. #4
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    Jun. 23, 2004
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    Loudoun County, VA
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Horse Farm View Post
    How old???

    It has been said on here 1000 times. Unless there is heat, swelling or lameness, DON'T x ray foals.

    WHY?

    1st, there are about 10 vets in the entire country qualified to look at growthplate films of warmbloods. If, you find one of them and IF the films are taken on high quality digital, you MIGHT have a true picture.

    2nd, foals don't necessarily grow evenly, even if there is nothing wrong.

    3rd, the x rays that you take today are useles in as little as two weeks of growth.
    Ditto Ditto Ditto
    I never radiograph foals in a PPE.



  5. #5
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    Mar. 13, 2007
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    Northern Virginia, 45 minutes east of paradise - 2 hrs during rush hour
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeeLawyer View Post
    Ditto Ditto Ditto
    I never radiograph foals in a PPE.
    Would you allow a buyer of one of your foals to radiograph?
    "The mighty oak is a nut who stood its ground"

    "...you'll never win Olympic gold by shaking a carrot stick at a warmblood..." see u at x



  6. #6
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    Jun. 23, 2004
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    Loudoun County, VA
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Stacie View Post
    Would you allow a buyer of one of your foals to radiograph?
    I allow my clients to discuss all aspects of my horses' medical history with my veterinarians and believe in full disclosure as I want a very happy client and horse. Regarding radiographing babies, I think honestly "it depends." I think they are of no value at that age, and of course if, God forbid, any "finding" turns up in a foal you run the risk that the baby will be bad mouthed, only to have the "flaw" magically disappear a few months later. But if the buyer had a particular reason for wanting the images despite understanding the limitations, I would probably allow it provided they have a competent vet to read them.

    Frankly, I am moving away from selling horses as foals, anyway, as I want to maximize the likelihood that my horses will have successful show careers and it is hard to find the right foal buyer for that.



  7. #7
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    Jun. 11, 2006
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    Default

    The buyer seems very educated about buying/selling. Both of these babies are being purchased as resale projects and she wants to make sure they are 100% (which I completely understand). Her SIL is an equine vet and will also look over the x-rays. I've had buyers x-ray foals and it has never been a problem. I've just never had this practice do the pre-purchase and have heard they find anything and make it a "something". Talk about stress!!
    Boarding for Show, Pleasure, and Retirement horses. www.LockeMeadows.com



  8. #8
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    Sep. 20, 2002
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    Hannover, Germany
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    Default

    Sorry, but you buyer is NOT very educated. OCD, its development etc. are as said above by others. There have been various researches that show that OCD in a foal can be gone two weeks later and vice versa.
    Good luck for you - I would not x ray foals (it includes for sure tranquilizing them) for the reasons said by others.
    I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC
    www.hannoveranerzuechter.de
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  9. #9
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    Jun. 23, 2004
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LockeMeadows View Post
    The buyer seems very educated about buying/selling. Both of these babies are being purchased as resale projects and she wants to make sure they are 100% (which I completely understand).
    My point was that Xrays at that age will not indicate one way or the other whether the horse will be 100% by the age of 3 or so.

    I've just never had this practice do the pre-purchase and have heard they find anything and make it a "something". Talk about stress!!
    That may indicate that they do not know how to read youngster images. Also, honestly, I don't have a lot of patience with people looking for the "perfect" specimen. No horse is 100% in my opinion.

    Anyway, aren't your foals half TB (e.g., Chelsea's baby?) Don't TBs have a much lower incidence of OCDs than WBs?



  10. #10
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    Aug. 28, 2006
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    Default

    OCD is pretty common in TBs. The push for growth for yearling sales is probably a contributing factor to those numbers..



  11. #11
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    Jun. 27, 2003
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    Default

    I would not allow the vet doing the PPE to do flexions on them either.



  12. #12
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by grayarabpony View Post
    OCD is pretty common in TBs. The push for growth for yearling sales is probably a contributing factor to those numbers..
    Interesting. I would have thought they would be lower risk but I see your point re sales prep.



  13. #13
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    Dec. 2, 2002
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    Default

    Here's what I would do in that instance....

    The assumption is that the foals would be PPE'd at your place and, therefore, you would be there for it all. Given that, you can refuse to have your foals tranquilized (I would), and then you can see how (un)successful the whole procedure will be. I would also refuse to have any flexion tests done and maybe have copies of articles/studies discussing the uselessness of radiographs in foals ready to give to the prospective client (not the vet).

    It may not endear you to the attending vet and I realize that (s)he is related to the potential client, however, it will show them that you take your job as a breeder seriously by continuing to educate yourself.

    If they then still insist on radiographs, tell them that the only way you will agree is if they are done in a clinic environment and then pick the hospital you trust.

    Good luck!
    Siegi Belz
    www.stalleuropa.com
    2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
    Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.



  14. #14
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeeLawyer View Post
    Anyway, aren't your foals half TB (e.g., Chelsea's baby?) Don't TBs have a much lower incidence of OCDs than WBs?
    Chelsea is a Swedish Warmblood and Leda is Old/TB cross. I have owned 5 of Chelsea's foals, 2 of which are owned by my clients, and all are sound at healthy. Leda's oldest is only a yearling, but he had never had a lame step in his life.
    Boarding for Show, Pleasure, and Retirement horses. www.LockeMeadows.com



  15. #15
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    Default

    I've just never had this practice do the pre-purchase and have heard they find anything and make it a "something". Talk about stress!!
    It is not that some vets find "something" so much as any reputable vet will have to report what s/he finds. The problem is that most buyers absolutely stop the purchase when they hear that the vet found some lesions and will not hear a single word past that, even when the vet tries to explain what the findings might or might not mean. If the client's husband is a vet, what on earth does he expect to find? Is he looking for OCD in a foal that has never been lame??? Then HE needs some education too!!!

    Look at the responses on this board to the question of whether OCD in a 2yo would be a deal breaker for a stallions prospect. There were some very, very good replies from very knowledgeable breeders, vets and European breeders that stated if there is no heat, swelling or lameness, it is probably not an issue, but if you're not sure, wait until 3 and re x-ray. Some people went wild with the 'no way Jose' bit and were absolutely appalled that someone would even think of breeding a horse with a lesion. They basically (and the buyers too) block their ears and go "la la la la la la la la la la la la la" and won't allow themselves to be educated.
    Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
    Now apparently completely invisible!



  16. #16
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    Mar. 13, 2007
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by siegi b. View Post
    Here's what I would do in that instance....

    The assumption is that the foals would be PPE'd at your place and, therefore, you would be there for it all. Given that, you can refuse to have your foals tranquilized (I would), and then you can see how (un)successful the whole procedure will be.
    That's hilarious.

    Unfortunately, it wouldn't work for me as we've already x-rayed (not for OCD) this years baby and he stood just fine
    "The mighty oak is a nut who stood its ground"

    "...you'll never win Olympic gold by shaking a carrot stick at a warmblood..." see u at x



  17. #17
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    Jul. 5, 2002
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    FL
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    Default

    I recently sold a foal that was thoroughly xrayed at the PPE. I was concerned, as I am well aware of the worth and reliability of foal xrays. However, the vet doing the PPE was a very experienced vet who sees thousands of horses a year and reads thousands of xrays a month. He is a lameness specialist and a surgeon and very practical and down to earth. He found one little something that he told the buyer might become something or equally likely might never be anything. Knowledgeable buyer bought the foal and will use the xrays as a basis of comparison in years to come.

    It was nerve wracking, but I was not going to tell a buyer that they could not do xrays. However, if they had wanted to do flexions, they would have had me in the way preventing them. No flexions under two years of age.



  18. #18

    Default

    Every young horse I have purchased ( the weanlings ) have their eyes and heart checked. If another issue is suspected I walk from the deal.
    BUT every one I have sold were x-rayed and gone over with a fine tooth comb.
    ~ Bill Rube ~
    http://www.bydesignfarm.com
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  19. #19
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    Jan. 20, 2006
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    Seguin, TX
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    Default

    My point was that Xrays at that age will not indicate one way or the other whether the horse will be 100% by the age of 3 or so.
    Ha ha ha - horses continue to defy all our attempts to turn them into 'machines' where defects and their implications can be predicted, analyzed, and engineered out.

    I've often wondered how many humans would pass a pre-purchase (at any age), yet most of us do just fine :-).



  20. #20
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    Jul. 17, 2002
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    Redlands, CA
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    I sold a baby at six months of age and the buyer did endless radiographs. The vet thought it was a ridiculous waste of money.

    This youngster died of some form of cancer at about age six.

    But he didn't have OCD.



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