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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun. 11, 2007
    Location
    Minnesota
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    Default NSC of Calf Manna???

    Does anyone know if that information exists? Is it safe to use on an IR horse who's IR issues are under control?

    I'm hoping Gus's weight just magically comes back in the next couple weeks, but so far he's still maintaining - and he really has a good 100lbs or so to gain.

    He was on Calf Manna and Cool Calories a few years back, prior to the IR diagnosis... and I know fat is a no-no for IR horses. But is Calf Manna safe? What amounts would you recommend feeding?

    He's currently on:

    Pasture 24/7
    Mixed Grass Hay - about 25-30# daily (roughly)
    Triple Crown Lite - 2.5lbs (bumped up from 2lbs about a week ago)
    Alfalfa pellets - literally about 1/2 to 1 cup daily, not very much at all

    plus his supps, which include:

    Mega Cell
    Magnesium 5000
    Lysine (10,000mg)
    MSM (also 10,000mg)
    Force Flex HA (100mg)

    Suggestions?
    Proud owner of Gus & Gringo.
    See G2's blog
    Photos



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun. 11, 2007
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    Minnesota
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    Default

    Bump.

    No one knows if NSC is applicable to Calf Manna?

    Then how about this. Is is safe to give to an under weight, IR horse who desperately needs about 100 more pounds before "winter" sets in? Heck, the rate we're going, winter will be here by the weekend (forecasts predict snow... yippy skippy ).
    Proud owner of Gus & Gringo.
    See G2's blog
    Photos



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb. 13, 2005
    Location
    Columbus, OH
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    6,983

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by appychik View Post
    Bump.

    No one knows if NSC is applicable to Calf Manna?

    Then how about this. Is is safe to give to an under weight, IR horse who desperately needs about 100 more pounds before "winter" sets in? Heck, the rate we're going, winter will be here by the weekend (forecasts predict snow... yippy skippy ).
    My guess is NO based on the ingredients list:

    Soybean meal, corn, hominy feed, feeding oatmeal, dried whey, dehydrated alfalfa meal, linseed meal, brewer’s dried yeast, vegetable oil, fenugreek seed, anise oil, calcium carbonate, monocalcium phosphate, dicalcium phosphate, salt, sulfur, iron oxide, ferrous carbonate, ferrous sulfate, copper oxide, copper sulfate, manganous oxide, zinc oxide, sodium selenite, cobalt carbonate, calcium iodate, Vitamin A supplement, Vitamin D3 supplement, Vitamin E supplement, choline chloride, thiamine mononitrate, niacin supplement, riboflavin supplement, calcium pantothenate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, Vitamin B12 supplement, folic acid, biotin.

    Corn, in particular, is scary. That's 70%+ NSC.

    It sounds like he's already getting a ton of hay, but it sounds like his grain meals are pretty light. Add more alf pellets or beet pulp.
    ________________________
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  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun. 11, 2007
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    Minnesota
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    Default

    Thanks jn4jenny. I did post the question the Yahoo Equine Cushings group, so I'll probably get the same response. I'm trying to find grass hay pellets as Gus hasn't had alfalfa before and I do worry about foot soreness (laminitis) as I've got rotten luck with horses so if something can go wrong, it will.

    Unfortunately, I can't feed more beet pulp then what he's already getting as it's a pain for the BO to feed. She's my future MIL and works from 5a to 1-2p every day and only feeds then after work in the afternoons. She's got four of her own horses and then my two, plus some chickens and geese. She's got her hands full and has medical issues herself, along with my future FIL. So... it's a major inconvenience to feed BP cause it has to be soaked and rinsed. I do it myself and freeze it, just unthawing it as needed. Seems to stay pretty fresh and tasty, least to Gus.

    How much alfalfa pellets can a horse have, safely, in one meal. Considering the other 2.5lbs of grain he's getting at that same meal? Just curious. Dividing up his meals isn't an option at this time either. I'm just fortunate that she's willing to bring him in to eat for 20 minutes rather then getting pushed away from his grain by his bossy "brother", Gringo.
    Proud owner of Gus & Gringo.
    See G2's blog
    Photos



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb. 13, 2005
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    Columbus, OH
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    Quote Originally Posted by appychik View Post
    How much alfalfa pellets can a horse have, safely, in one meal. Considering the other 2.5lbs of grain he's getting at that same meal? Just curious. Dividing up his meals isn't an option at this time either. I'm just fortunate that she's willing to bring him in to eat for 20 minutes rather then getting pushed away from his grain by his bossy "brother", Gringo.
    Horses can safely eat up to .5% of their body weight at any given meal. For a 1000-lb horse, that's 5 pounds per meal. The equine stomach can hold about 4.5 gallons of material. So you're well under the limits in both departments.

    Most folks agree that you can change a horse's feed by about 33% of total weight/bulk without upsetting the digestive applecart. So assuming you're feeding 2.5 lbs and he's already got SOME alf pellets in there (which means his system is acclimated to them), you could start adding 3/4 pounds of alf pellets per meal and expect Gus to adapt just fine.

    ETA: I also ditto the poster below's advice to start thinking about another feed. There's nothing wrong with TC Lite, but your horse needs weight and there are plenty of low-NSC feeds that could provide it better. Like, as mentioned below, TC Senior.

    PS--you can eliminate the "bringing in" part of your MIL's kindness if you convince her to use a feed bag. That might buy you back some PITA Currency.
    ________________________
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  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar. 2, 2009
    Posts
    150

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    appychik..

    I know we have talked before about IR, Gus and TC lite..but..if your horse is that underweight (needing to gain 100 pounds or so) did we ever talk about TC Senior? This feed is beet pulp based (you won't have to do any soaking!), 10% fat and also VERY LOW in NSC so appropriate for horses with metabolic issues...perhaps if you like lite for the vit/min content..you could start adding some senior into his diet, he could be on the 2lbs of lite and get a pound or two of tc senior as well, or he could continue to get more and more senior and switch over to the 5 lb minimum of senior needed per day... I just skimmed over the thread so am trying to remember your whole scenerio, the horses are only fed 1 "concentrate" meal a day??? That what is looks like from your replys below. If you have any interest in adding senior to the diet or have more questions you can PM me...but seems if your horse is that underweight, getting him on senior may be more appropriate right now...I just can't remember your whole story at this point.

    *another option, can some ricebran/flax oil be drizzled on his feed for additional calories??
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  7. #7
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    Thanks tcnhorsefeed and jn4jenny again.

    I think I will pick up a bag of TC Senior and try that... I'll start with just a pound of it and go from there. It's okay to do a bit of both, isn't it? (That is feeding both TC Lite and TC Senior?)

    I will otherwise think about upping the alfalfa, or least it's nice to know that it's an option also, and that he can safely get that much (as long as there are no foot issues).

    I do appreciate everyone helping me out. It's hard figuring this whole diet thing on your own... especially when you've got metabolic and hard keeper issues to deal with too.
    Proud owner of Gus & Gringo.
    See G2's blog
    Photos



  8. #8
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    Feb. 25, 1999
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    Aiken, SC
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    Default

    Would like to third the notion of finding an appropriate high calorie feed and feeding as much as you can consistent with the IR situation.
    Tinwhistle Farm



  9. #9
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    Feb. 13, 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by appychik View Post
    Thanks tcnhorsefeed and jn4jenny again.

    I think I will pick up a bag of TC Senior and try that... I'll start with just a pound of it and go from there. It's okay to do a bit of both, isn't it? (That is feeding both TC Lite and TC Senior?)
    I wouldn't call it ideal but you probably won't kill your horse. TC Lite is formulated to provide all of your horse's vit/mins at 2 pounds per day. If you feed him 2.5 pounds of TC Lite PLUS TC Senior, you are overloading him in the vit/min department. TC Senior is designed to give the full vit/min requirements at 6 pounds per day, so if you feed 2.5 lbs of TC lite plus say 2 pounds of TC senior, your horse is getting nearly 150% of the daily requirements. Again, keep in mind that there are horses who eat TEN pounds of TC Senior a day, and they survive. But I don't know if there are special vit/min issues with metabolic horses since I don't own one.

    You should ask the folks over at Equine Cushing's if a small amount of veg oil would be problematic. Oil is generally a no-no for IR horses, but on the other hand most of the low-starch feeds have veg oil on their ingredient list. So perhaps in very small quantities it would be okay, and it's the best caloric bang for your buck available. One cup of oil = approximately 1800 calories. Compare that to alfalfa pellets--you'd have to feed about two pounds of alfalfa pellets to get the same amount of calories.
    ________________________
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    http://twitter.com/jenlmichaels



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