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  1. #1
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    Default Color Experts -- Silly Question

    If I breed a palomino mare to a black stallion who is homozygous for black (points), does that mean I cannot possibly get a palomino, only a buckskin?

    And does this lessen the 50-50 chance of a dilute?



  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyzteke View Post
    If I breed a palomino mare to a black stallion who is homozygous for black (points), does that mean I cannot possibly get a palomino, only a buckskin?
    Yes. A homozygous for black stallion can never sire a red foal (chestnut, palomino, cremello).

    And does this lessen the 50-50 chance of a dilute?
    No. A homozygous for black sire may reduce the amount of chrome potential in the foal though.

    You do not need to be an expert to understand these basics.



  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyzteke View Post
    If I breed a palomino mare to a black stallion who is homozygous for black (points),
    what does that mean - homozygous for black (points)? Are you saying he's black, and homozygous for black? I've only ever heard "homozygous for black point" when referring to a horse who is EEAA - meaning he's bay, and is always going to produce bay with another black/bay/chestnut horse.

    If the horse is black, he cannot have anything that causes bay, or he'd be bay.

    does that mean I cannot possibly get a palomino, only a buckskin?
    If he's EE, homozygous for black, then right, you can never get a red-based horse (ie a palomino).

    As for buckskin - if he is black himself, then any bay or bay-derivative (ie buckskin would be solely up to the mare. In this case, with the mare being red-based, where Agouti (the gene that causes bay) is not expressed, you don't know her status. If she is aa, your chances are 50/50 black and smoky black. If she's AA, your chances are 50/50 bay and buckskin. If she's Aa, 25% each bay, black, buckskin, smoky black.

    And does this lessen the 50-50 chance of a dilute?
    The palomino mare will have a 50/50 shot at giving her dilute gene each breeding. That gene is entirely separate from black or bay or any other factor
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  4. #4
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    Default If he's truly black

    You could get a smoky black.

    So your possibilities are:

    Bay, Buckskin, Black, or Smoky Black.

    Since the smoky black is not obviously dilute it can lessen your chances for an easily identifiable dilute although the gene will still be there.
    -Painted Wings

    Set youself apart from the crowd, ride a paint horse, you're sure to be spotted



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    Quote Originally Posted by JB View Post
    what does that mean - homozygous for black (points)? Are you saying he's black, and homozygous for black? I've only ever heard "homozygous for black point" when referring to a horse who is EEAA - meaning he's bay, and is always going to produce bay with another black/bay/chestnut horse.

    If the horse is black, he cannot have anything that causes bay, or he'd be bay.
    Actually, that's not true, from what I understand. A stallion can be homzygous black, which means he cannot produce a red, but he CAN produce a bay if the mare has the agouti gene. Rosenthal is such a horse (I got a bay from a chestnut mare) and so is Sandro Hit and Sempatico (again, my friend got a tri-colored pinto by Sempatico o/o her chestnut mare). All of these horses are advertised as homozygous black (cannot produce a red), but all have produced bays.

    Am I expressing it incorrectly?

    As for the rest, I thought as much, but wanted to check just to make sure. Since palomino is a red dilute and homozygous black blocks red, I figured I couldn't get a palie...but then my head started to hurt and I had to go take a nap



  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyzteke View Post
    Actually, that's not true, from what I understand. A stallion can be homzygous black, which means he cannot produce a red, but he CAN produce a bay if the mare has the agouti gene.
    Yes, but JB is talking about the horse BEING black. If the horse is black he has no "A" of any kind. He can only produce a bay if the dam contributes it. And that she has only heard homozygous for black points when the horse can ONLY produce a bay based horse no matter what its bred to. (So to her a black would not qualify as homozygous for black points because it would then be BAY not black.)
    Rosenthal is such a horse (I got a bay from a chestnut mare) and so is Sandro Hit and Sempatico (again, my friend got a tri-colored pinto by Sempatico o/o her chestnut mare). All of these horses are advertised as homozygous black (cannot produce a red), but all have produced bays.
    They have produced bays but they themselves are not bay, they are black. If they were bay they would have "A".

    Am I expressing it incorrectly?
    I think youre just misunderstanding a bit.
    Check out my Equine Genetics Blog! Updated April 25th with Splashed White!!!
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  7. #7
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    Here are three horses that I think illustrate JBs point.

    This horse is homozygous for black points. He will only ever produce bay based offspring. He is EEAACRcr
    http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...g/moretiii.jpg

    This horse is homozygous for black
    http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...alea_trot2.jpg

    This horse is also homozygous for black
    http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2..._006_small.jpg

    The first horse will only produce bay based offspring no matter the dams color. The second horse can produce black or bay, but no chestnut. The last horse can produce black or bay BUT the gene to change black to bay MUST be supplied by the dam.
    Check out my Equine Genetics Blog! Updated April 25th with Splashed White!!!
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyzteke View Post
    Actually, that's not true, from what I understand. A stallion can be homzygous black, which means he cannot produce a red, but he CAN produce a bay if the mare has the agouti gene. Rosenthal is such a horse (I got a bay from a chestnut mare) and so is Sandro Hit and Sempatico (again, my friend got a tri-colored pinto by Sempatico o/o her chestnut mare). All of these horses are advertised as homozygous black (cannot produce a red), but all have produced bays.

    Am I expressing it incorrectly?

    As for the rest, I thought as much, but wanted to check just to make sure. Since palomino is a red dilute and homozygous black blocks red, I figured I couldn't get a palie...but then my head started to hurt and I had to go take a nap

    Not to hijack this thread, but what kind of bay did you get? Curious because I am breeding my liver chestnut mare to Rosenthal in 2010 and bay is my color. The darker the better in fact.

    And for the OP, I definatley understand all this color genetics stuff making your head hurt. I have a headache now just reading about it LOL.
    Dawn



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    Quote Originally Posted by RiddleMeThis View Post
    Yes, but JB is talking about the horse BEING black. If the horse is black he has no "A" of any kind. He can only produce a bay if the dam contributes it. And that she has only heard homozygous for black points when the horse can ONLY produce a bay based horse no matter what its bred to. (So to her a black would not qualify as homozygous for black points because it would then be BAY not black.) They have produced bays but they themselves are not bay, they are black. If they were bay they would have "A".

    I think youre just misunderstanding a bit.
    Gotcha!!



  11. #11
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    Thanks Riddler. I think I am actually staring to understand this stuff a little better even though I did not originally ask the question. But please don't start throwing around a bunch of little e's and big e's mixed up with other letters. I get confused. All I want to be sure of is that my future little Rosenthal will at least be bay (dark, dark bay if I can pick my bay) out of my liver chestnut mare.

    Dawn



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    Quote Originally Posted by Arab/WBGirl View Post
    Not to hijack this thread, but what kind of bay did you get? Curious because I am breeding my liver chestnut mare to Rosenthal in 2010 and bay is my color. The darker the better in fact.

    And for the OP, I definatley understand all this color genetics stuff making your head hurt. I have a headache now just reading about it LOL.
    Dawn
    My mare is not what one would technically call a "liver" I suppose, but she is very dark chestnut and registered with AHS as "dark chestnut." Her dam was a very dark bay -- pretty close to what some call a "black bay." She does have some black in the second generation, but more liver chestnuts than anything else.

    I bred her to Sempatico & got a black & white colt, so naturally I assumed I'd get black from Rosenthal (that will teach me to assume...).

    But her filly by Rosenthal was born a rich mahogany bay (after I had expressly ordered a black), but now that she's shedding out her foal coat she is very, very dark.

    However, I've learned not to be fooled by that first shed -- it seems alot of them look dark. So we will wait till spring and see...how's that for an answer ?

    Like you, I love a really dark bay, but really didn't want just a plain old bay...mainly because I already have afew of them....

    But she is lovely in all other ways, and I REALLY wanted a filly, so I'm not going to complain too much.

    Here is a link to my Webshots page -- her album is entitled "Rosalina." Those pics were taken 2 weeks ago, right after she first started to shed, so she's darker now...

    http://community.webshots.com/user/RecklessHeartRanch
    Last edited by Kyzteke; Oct. 4, 2009 at 10:22 PM.



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    Quote Originally Posted by rcloisonne View Post
    A homozygous for black sire may reduce the amount of chrome potential in the foal though.
    Why is that?



  14. #14
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    Kyzteke, yes, the issue was when you said it was a "black stallion who is homozygous for black (points)".

    As it stands, both "black stallion" and "homozygous for black points" cannot exist on the same horse. He can be black-*based* and be AA (homoz for black points, aka bay), but he can't be black - the presence of a single A turns him bay (or brown, but let's not complicate things ).

    If he's black, his Agouti status must be aa, which is the exact opposite of AA/homozygous for black points
    ______________________________
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyzteke View Post
    Why is that?
    It's pretty well documented that the presence of E (the "on" version of the extension locus which makes a horse black-based) has a suppressing effect on frame, splash, and sabino - the Overo patterns.

    If you take a general look at the horse population, looking at chromed horses, and the classic frame overo pattern, you'll see a disproportionately large % of them are red-based. If you start looking even just at www.warmbloods-for-sale.com you'll notice that when horses have lots of high leg white, they're much, much more likely to be chestnut. Most of the bay or black horses with any white on their legs have low leg white. Black suppression - and not in a racial way LOL!
    ______________________________
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  16. #16
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    why doesn't the color calculator include liver chestnut? from what my vet said, I understood that liver chestnut is a different gene than red chestnut???
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  17. #17
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    Nope, liver is just a shade of chestnut

    Bright bay, mahogany bay, dark bay - they're all bay, just different shades.

    Isabella palomino is just a light shade of palomino. Buttermilk is just a light shade of buckskin.

    Now, there ARE separate, unidentified genes that are responsible for shade, but the extension status of liver is still ee, just like chestnut; a bay is still E?A? no matter the shade; buckskin still E?A?Crcr no matter the shade, etc.
    ______________________________
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  18. #18
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    and i expressly asked that a bunch of letters not get thrown around. I am dizzy for sure now LOL. I am in awe of those of you who truly understand all this color genetics. Rock on.
    Dawn



  19. #19
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    is there a way to tell determine red chestnut x liver chestnut??

    i am dizzy too!!!
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB View Post
    It's pretty well documented that the presence of E (the "on" version of the extension locus which makes a horse black-based) has a suppressing effect on frame, splash, and sabino - the Overo patterns.

    If you take a general look at the horse population, looking at chromed horses, and the classic frame overo pattern, you'll see a disproportionately large % of them are red-based. If you start looking even just at www.warmbloods-for-sale.com you'll notice that when horses have lots of high leg white, they're much, much more likely to be chestnut. Most of the bay or black horses with any white on their legs have low leg white. Black suppression - and not in a racial way LOL!
    Black is a "white supressor" gene not only from a standpoint of paint/pinto but also in terms of appaloosas.



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