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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov. 16, 2001
    Location
    Canada
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    1,652

    Default need white line info! and chances of re-occurance?

    My much adored TB gelding was diagnosed with white line disease today. Approx 2/3 of the hoof appears to be affected, from toe to coronet. The cost to fix has me scrambling, and the time it'll take is even worse, especially going into winter where shoes on a horse who has to be in a small area is a logistics nightmare. He'd go crazy on stall rest and ...well.. this is a nightmare. Major resection, shoes and resets that will likely have to be glued for a long period, etc... initially not enough hoof wall would be left to support... so no riding, which is fine, and limited mobility in general - which in his mind, will NOT be fine.... On a 7yo horse with chronic other issues anyways.

    I am working on sorting out if it's worth continuing. Everything I've found seems to suggest the condition itself is reparable, albeit in my guy's case, expensive and lengthy.

    My biggest question is, and it's one I can't seem to find an answer to, if I go ahead and increase the debt load to fix this, is there an increased likelyhood of this re-occuring? Once a horse develops it, are they more prone to it? It's in a club foot..just to make matters more aggravating.

    Any other information about white line would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks.
    *&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&
    "Show me the back of a thoroughbred horse, and I will show you my wings."
    &*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug. 3, 2009
    Posts
    38

    Default

    I have a post on here about WLD somewhere with pics of the one's hoof. If you want to go the cheaper route, go get some Vagisil & use the cream to treat the hoof. Better yet go to the dollar store & get generic for $2/tube....

    I used the vagisil for two weeks & then went to Sav-A-Hoof where you paint the hoof & the coronet for another two weeks. Mine were resectioned also. Had one come in with hind WLD -- didn't have to stop work. Another came in with it in the front...that one was laid up for about 4 weeks -- shoe OFF (for better treatment). The key is to make sure the hoof is resectioned far enough back..going a little bit past the white powder, otherwise it's pretty dang hard to get the medicine where it needs to be. I also recommend buying this -- Nu-Foot VET formula... (don't mix it up with nu-hoof...completely different product)

    http://www.jeffersequine.com/ssc/pro...=1&pf_id=11816



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov. 17, 2001
    Location
    Bryan,Texas
    Posts
    2,262

    Default

    Get the hoof resected. Then twice a week do the White Lightening liquid with white vinegar treatment. That treatment is equal parts White Lightening liquid with white vinegar soak. Grand Circuit sells the soaking boot or you can get a large IV bag. Soak the foot per instruction of the White Lightening.

    Also in between soaks, apply merthiolate to the area, daily.

    Also can use the White Lightening Gel twice aweek. Apply to the area, stuff or wrap a 4 X 4 gauze over it and duct tape leave on for a few hours.

    The answer is yes, that your horse will always have a tendency to have re-occurrences of WLD. Be very alert to keeping his feet as dry as possible--clean dry stall, not standing in mud, or being on wet grass.

    My 9 yr old gelding is watched closely. He had WLD in 3 feet, it took a year to get it cleaned up. He gets examined every time the farrier comes.
    The same with my 6 yr old gelding who has had only minor cases in his hind feet and only around the nail holes, so he gets merthiolate in the nail holes and the ocassional toe crack, where the WLD tries to get a start.



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec. 9, 2005
    Location
    North East, MD
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    4,356

    Default

    I suggest you ask your question on www.horseshoes.com. More farriers post over there, many of them have done resections and can give you a better idea of what to expect as far as recurrence.

    Good luck with your horse. You might want to look into snow-ball or icing pads that deter ice balls from forming under a shod hoof.



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb. 18, 2006
    Location
    east central Illinois and working north to the 'burbs
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    3,836

    Default

    WLD(a misnomer by the way) is a disease of opportunity. The hoof/hooves that are affected are always under some kind of stress from other causes. ie: poor trimming, long toes, high sugar diets, etc. Once the cause(s) is/are determined and rectified and the original infection grown out, the horse stands no more chance of a re-occurance than do any other horses.

    I am a firm believer in and proponent of resecting the wall until clean margins have been reached. The foot will need to be supported in some manner, ie: heart bar shoes, bar shoes and firm hoof packing/support such as one of the Vettec products. The other advice to treat with White Lightning or Clean Trax and Merthiolate is very good advice.

    I have had horses in my custom that have had 50% or more of their hoof wall resected, heart bar shoes and EquiPak amended to the affected hoof/hooves and only miss one or two days of work. In those instances, I ask the client to cover the resected area with some gauze and duct tape for the duration of the work. Exposure to light and air are the two best ways to insure the pathogens responsible are killed. Do not let the hoof/hooves get or remain wet. No turnout in mud, wet grass, etc.

    It can take a year or more to completly re-grow a resected hoof capsule and if any of the pathogens are missed, then they will tend to flourish and the process starts again.



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep. 8, 2007
    Posts
    2,914

    Default

    I had a horse who developed WLD. I used the product "Tomorrow" to treat it. I also realized that it was being caused by improper trimming. His toes were being left too long and it was stretching out the WL, allowing germs to enter. I switched farriers and the new farrier kept his toes trimmed correctly. He never had another issue with WLD. Your case sounds worse, but once you get it healed up take a look at the trim and make sure the toes stay trimmed well enough and flares are not allowed to start.



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun. 20, 2006
    Location
    Ft. Collins, CO
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    793

    Default

    Check this out : http://www.hoofrehab.com/end_of_whit....htm#Whiteline

    DH has been helping horses with this issues for years using the advice given here. It works.



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov. 8, 2006
    Location
    NJ
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    732

    Default

    I've stayed away from resecting wld. The ones I've seen have had a mechanical reason why it might be there. Reducing leverage on the area and cleaning it out a little bit plus grabbing what ever was closest to grab (durasole, thrush buster), has cleared it up. It took a few shoeings and resecting would obviously get to the bottom of things quicker but money isn't always available for resecting and shoeing to go along with it.

    Do you have pics of the club foot? Depending on how that foot is shod and how severe the club foot is, you might have a reason why there is wld. If it's mechanical from the club or shoeing causing it a resection would be a waste of time and money.
    Eric Russell CJF



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb. 18, 2006
    Location
    east central Illinois and working north to the 'burbs
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Native View Post
    Excerpt from the treatise "I have found that “white line disease” can be conquered with a three part attack of 1) making adjustments to the environment, 2) making adjustments to the diet, and 3) competent hoof care."

    While those things are components of the treatment protocol(s), they alone ignore the fact that unless all of the causative pathogens are removed/killed, they won't work. The pathogens involved in WLD are anaerobic and the stratum medium of the hoof capsule provides a perfect environment in which they can flourish. Thus, the initial advise proffered by Mr. Ramey is at best, disingenuous.

    To his credit, in the final paragraph of his treatise, Mr. Ramey briefly discussed anti-fungal treatments. Though given relative short shrift, they are an integral part of successful treatment of WLD. And one should not overlook the fact that since the pathogens involved are anaerobic, exposure to light and air is equally as good a treatment as any of the others presented.

    And while Mr. Ramey claims "I also have grown out hundreds of severe white line problems with no chemical treatment going on at all, so you tell me.", I would note that not all white line problems are associated with WLD, so the claim, in context, seems dubious. Or , in his own words, "so you tell me......".



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb. 18, 2006
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    east central Illinois and working north to the 'burbs
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by eruss View Post
    I've stayed away from resecting wld. The ones I've seen have had a mechanical reason why it might be there.
    Regardless of the initial reason, once established, the pathogens have to be removed or killed, in conjunction with correct hoof care, to prevent the occurrence or continuation of the pathology,.
    Do you have pics of the club foot? Depending on how that foot is shod and how severe the club foot is, you might have a reason why there is wld. If it's mechanical from the club or shoeing causing it a resection would be a waste of time and money.
    Again, I disagree. Regardless of the cause, the pathogens have to be removed/killed in order for the hoof capsule to grow out and remain healthy. Merely removing the cause is not enough. Topical treatments for minor WLD pathology may be effective. However, in advanced cases, a more aggressive protocol is, IMNTBCHO, necessary.



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Nov. 8, 2006
    Location
    NJ
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    732

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Burten View Post

    Again, I disagree. Regardless of the cause, the pathogens have to be removed/killed in order for the hoof capsule to grow out and remain healthy. Merely removing the cause is not enough. Topical treatments for minor WLD pathology may be effective. However, in advanced cases, a more aggressive protocol is, IMNTBCHO, necessary.
    No mine were not what I would call advanced cases. Maybe about half the toe with obvious mechanical issues.

    In this case, with a club foot, I'd still like to see some pics. Depending on the mechanics of the trim and shoe fit/position might swerve my thinking to do one thing or the other.
    Eric Russell CJF



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec. 9, 2005
    Location
    North East, MD
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    4,356

    Default

    There seems to be quite a bit of confusion as to what White Line Disease is. It seems that many things get called WLD without truly being WLD. It currently seems to be an umbrella term that covers for a wide variety of things causing hoof-wall separation. Tom Stovall refers to hoof wall disease, where separation occurs between the unpigmented and pigmented walls (he uses actual technical names for these). I've only ever seen major separation in the white line. Unless it is purely mechanical separation, something is growing in there that needs to be killed in order to keep it from spreading further upward. Even with mechanical separation, the tearing gives organisms the opportunity to infect, and once they have an ideal environment (i.e. dark and moist), they multiply.

    Rick, a few months ago you talked a little about thrush in the white line, which is how I've come to think of most of the cases I see. These usually respond very well to weekly treatments with White Lightening, along with trimming to minimize flares. Owners have to clean the black junk out as well as possible before treating. I've seen a lot of it duirng this wet summer even on well trimmed hooves, depending on how well drained the horse's environment is.

    Regardless of whether it is yeast or thrush growing in there, if the infection is very high up inside the walls, topical treatments or soaks are going to have trouble getting to the organisms causing the separation. And the rate of infection could keep up with or surpass new hoof growth, even with a perfect trim. So a resection not only exposes the beasties to light and the drying effect of air, it allows them to be treated to prevent the infection from spreading upward.

    Just my $0.02. Not a vet or a farrier. Just somebody who has grown out her fair share of separations, but still refers the very bad cases to farriers who can resect and add a shoe.



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Nov. 8, 2006
    Location
    NJ
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by matryoshka View Post
    Regardless of whether it is yeast or thrush growing in there, if the infection is very high up inside the walls, topical treatments or soaks are going to have trouble getting to the organisms causing the separation.
    You can fill a syringe with a topical solution to get it higher in the foot and it can be shot up there daily.
    Eric Russell CJF



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Aug. 3, 2009
    Posts
    38

    Default

    Here's my thread.

    http://chronicleforums.com/Forum/sho...d.php?t=217400

    This particular gelding ended up losing a big chunk of his hoof & even though the one farrier recommended just what eruss mentioned -- using a syringe -- that just does NOT work all the time. We HAD to cut out the hoof to expose it to air & make it easier to treat. Rick is 100%...no...200% correct. If I wouldn't have listened to him & go against the 1st farrier to pull the shoe...this horse very well could have ended up with extensive damage.

    Currently he's back to work & doing great.

    Here's a pic of when he was unloaded off the van & then pics of right after it was cut out.

    http://s604.photobucket.com/albums/t...orselover6110/

    Reducine on the coronet also aids in growing the hoof back out....



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Nov. 8, 2006
    Location
    NJ
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    732

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by horselover61 View Post
    Here's my thread.

    http://chronicleforums.com/Forum/sho...d.php?t=217400

    This particular gelding ended up losing a big chunk of his hoof & even though the one farrier recommended just what eruss mentioned -- using a syringe -- that just does NOT work all the time. We HAD to cut out the hoof to expose it to air & make it easier to treat. Rick is 100%...no...200% correct. If I wouldn't have listened to him & go against the 1st farrier to pull the shoe...this horse very well could have ended up with extensive damage.
    I think you just proved my point about mechanics! Your pics didn't suggest bad wld, they suggest poor farriery! Just shooting topical solution with a syringe isn't close to what I suggested. The only thing that would have caused damage in your case is that shoeing!
    Eric Russell CJF



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Dec. 9, 2005
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    North East, MD
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by eruss View Post
    You can fill a syringe with a topical solution to get it higher in the foot and it can be shot up there daily.
    That's a good suggestion, but the organisms can be infecting beyond the point of actual separation. Topicals only travel so far. It's why White Lightening may be decent option, because the gas supposedly penetrates farther than a liquid, and much farther than a paste (the gas is created when WL is mixed with vinegar). So no, I wouldn't trust medicine inserted with a syringe to reach all the organisms. A soak, such as Clean Trax, would be better. Too bad Clean Trax is such a pain to use. Still, inserting topicals in there with a small-nozzle syringe is better than doing nothing.

    I wonder if DMSO could be used to bring meds closer to the infection.
    Last edited by matryoshka; Sep. 13, 2009 at 06:37 PM.



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jan. 25, 2002
    Location
    In the heart of the Bluegrass state, Kentucky! Where chiggers and turkey mites abound.
    Posts
    118

    Default I received the same nasty news a few years ago

    from a "famous" farrier. Told it would cost $$$$$$ to fix with special shoeing and such. One bottle of Absorbine thrush therapy and MY little (he's not little, but you know what I mean) farriers' regular visits and a few months later.....GONE! You can beat this!!! Lots of good suggestions here.
    Earthdogs, you gotta dig 'em!



  18. #18
    Join Date
    Aug. 3, 2009
    Posts
    38

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by eruss View Post
    I think you just proved my point about mechanics! Your pics didn't suggest bad wld, they suggest poor farriery! Just shooting topical solution with a syringe isn't close to what I suggested. The only thing that would have caused damage in your case is that shoeing!
    This horse had VERY bad WLD....& it most certainly 100% was WLD. If you can't tell that it makes me wonder about your credentials of a blacksmith if you are one (not sure if it was mentioned). Yes, he had poor farriery work when he arrived off the van (i.e.... not being trimmed) from Florida, which is why he probably had such a big hole (on the white line... which is why it panicked us...wasn't just the outside wall...). I have pics showing how stretched his white line was...will search for them tonight.

    X-rays were done before his hoof was cut out & both vet & blacksmith confirmed. Original blacksmith that shod him after arrival also came back to apologize to us & refund our money back (which surprised us!!).

    Also want to caution again about inserting a syringe into the hole...we tried this for a week & the disinfectant just can't get up far enough. It must be cut out.



  19. #19
    Join Date
    Mar. 12, 2006
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    4,343

    Default

    My horse had a case of white line, and they opened the wall, treated with iodine. Then the next cycle, took out more wall and filled with acrylic. She has regular shoes (with clips) and equipac to help support things. She has been turned out, ridden and even shown the whole time. They removed about 25% of her wall. It has not cost me that much to deal with. It seems like after the initial stuff dies off they rebuild the wall with acrylic fairly easily. Maybe they need to take too much off your horse?

    I don't think it is a "recurring" thing or a chronic issue, or something like a suspensory that leaves a weakness. I think hers was probably the result of infected nail holes, and we now use equipac to help mitigate the conditions that caused them.



  20. #20
    Join Date
    Nov. 8, 2006
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    NJ
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    Default

    There are certainly cases that need to be resected. A few problems I have with people who want to resect immediately are myself and people I know have fixed wld without resecting, it just takes longer. It doesn't appear to eat the entire foot away. Why is this? If it doesn't particularly eat solid foot, what do you call the new foot after the mechanics are fixed? Most horses don't go lame from it, what's the rush to lay the horse up with a resection and heartbars? Imo, except in a few instances it is an opportunistic deal.
    Eric Russell CJF



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