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  1. #1
    tattooedrdr Guest

    Default UPDATE Am I getting a bad deal...live in barn manager...

    I am writing under an alter.

    Anyways, the barn I am currently living at and managing is coming under new ownership well sorta thats a long story in itself. So, my deal with the old owner was I live for free in the apartment at the barn, board my horses for free, and do the barn in the afternoons on the weekdays and all day on the weekends. I got a day off usually everyother week but the weekdays were easy enough I did not insist apon one. I recieved no pay, but instead a place to live and a place for my horses to live. I had to pay cable bill, but internet was included with apartment. We had a morning guy on the weekdays.

    Now, the new owners take over and I am working the barn 6 days, all day, a week with one day off a week. I have to pay for my horses to eat. They are now paying me, but I in return write them a check back for the same amount as rent for my apartment. They also cut off the phone line and internet, so I now have to pay for that which is $52.00/month for just dsl without a phone line plus I pay for my cable(dish) which I already did anyways. I guess I do not have to have those things but I live alone out in the country and would go crazy without them. I am getting no pay in return.

    I really feel like I am getting screwed over. I know I had a great deal before, but now I feel used! They are paying me which I turn around and pay them the money for rent, but I am now going to have to pay taxes on the money plus I am paying to feed my horses and doing a lot more work.

    I feel like this is unfair, but I wanted to know what other people thought. I think I should at least get a few hundred or just keep my horses for free like I used to. Its enough work that I could not be able to get another job as the horses are fed three times a day and there are turnout changes throughout the day. So, if my mom was not helping to support me then I would be starving.

    Any thoughts on this? Am I getting used??
    Last edited by tattooedrdr; Aug. 28, 2009 at 08:20 PM.



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan. 23, 2000
    Location
    Virginia
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    7,752

    Default

    Yep, sure sounds like it.
    ---
    They're small hearts.



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar. 30, 2007
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    Hollowed out volcano in the South Pacific.
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    10,797

    Default

    You're getting...well I can't really say it. Break out the Johnnie Walker and some KY.
    SPACE FOR RENT



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov. 9, 2007
    Location
    NJ
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    3,389

    Default

    Absolutely getting ripped off! Find a new place. Most barns, much like how it was under old ownership, will allow you to keep the horse there for free, at the very least. Many will allow free stay in an apartment on-site, too. (very much depends on their necessity though. it would be very much a working student situation) You should not be feeling like a starving college kid. Find a new place!
    (|--Sarah--|)

    Blitz <3 & Leap of Faith <3



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov. 9, 2007
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    NJ
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    3,389

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LexInVA View Post
    You're getting...well I can't really say it. Break out the Johnnie Walker and some KY.
    (|--Sarah--|)

    Blitz <3 & Leap of Faith <3



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec. 22, 2000
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    14,732

    Default

    Depending on the situation, full time help often gets housing plus a paycheck. The horses of your own are a complicating factor, but it sounds like you're getting a raw deal.



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec. 28, 2001
    Location
    over yonder
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    2,850

    Default

    How many horses do you have? What does the barn charge for board? How many hours do you work?
    Auventera Two:Some women would eat their own offspring if they had some dipping sauce.



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun. 24, 2005
    Posts
    659

    Default

    Why don't you add up the hours you work, multiply it by minimum wage and take it from there. Figure out how much the apartment is worth, and the board on the horses. My guess is that you are not being paid enough!

    Sometimes you have to learn to stand up for yourself - or you will find yourself being taken advantage of instead of having your employer respect you.



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Apr. 12, 2002
    Location
    Former Long Islander now in the middle of the Great Lakes
    Posts
    1,589

    Default

    .. Not knowing how many horses you have or how many horses you are taking care of or how many hours a day you spend working it's hard to say if your getting screwed or not. If you have 4 horses and you are taking care of 4 of theirs then I would say no . if they have 20 horses and you have 2 and it's taking 8 hours a day to take care of them then I would say yes your getting screwed and they know it, They also probably would rather have you leave which is why they are treating you like slave labor.. figure barn work is valued at a minimum of $8.00 per hour , If you are working 48 hours per that’s $384.00 per,(6 day week) many farms include living quarters but not free board for a horse, it's usually 1 horse at that if they do and that is a trainer perk in most cases not a grooms or stable helps. So figure it from that point .. your salary should be close to $1,500.00 a month. The luxury for them to give you free living accommodations is that you would be available for night check and emergencies. No they should not be responsible for your phone or cable bills.
    It also may be they view the stall space you are taking up is costing them a paying boarder which they would be making a profit off of too .



  10. #10
    tattooedrdr Guest

    Default

    I have 2 horses. They figured it cost them 180/month/horse for my horses to eat and for shavings. Right now we have 14 horses on the property. We have 24 stalls. 3/14 live outside. So, I do 11 stalls a day plus feed am, lunch, and pm. All the day turnout horses are hosed off when they come inside. Morning chores take about 2 hours, lunch chores take 1 hour or maybe a bit more, and night chores are usual close to 2 1/2 to 3 hours. It depends on how many stalls I have to rebed etc etc. So, I would say I work about 6 hours a day at least, but more as I do other chores to help with ground maintence. They also want me to start teaching lessons and bring in a client base. They are struggling right now which is why I have kinda agreed to get screwed a bit to help them out, but it just not working out. I am getting paid about as much I as I should be, but having to repay that for rent. I agree they do not have to pay cable or internet. I just can't believe they cut off the phone line. I live out in the boonies and do not always get the best reception. What if there was a fire and I could not call 911 because there is no landline.

    If I could even just get my horses for free instead of paying for them that would be great. My horses pretty much just eat the hay at the barn anyways since one has to be on a special diet due to allergies and the other I buy Ultium for.



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb. 6, 2003
    Location
    Deep South
    Posts
    14,235

    Default

    You're getting screwed ! (compared to your old deal)

    If you work a full 8 hrs x 6 days a week = 48 Hours
    At just over minimum wage @$8 an hour; 40hr week = $320
    Overtime for the rest; 8hrs @ $12 an hour - $96
    Total for a week = $416 a week or $1664 a month

    How do you live if you have to give back all your salary in rent?
    Wouldn't that make it really hard to eat and stuff?


    You need to have a come to Jesus meeting.



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec. 22, 2000
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    14,732

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tattooedrdr View Post
    They are struggling right now which is why I have kinda agreed to get screwed a bit to help them out,
    Oh, honey.

    That's your issue right there in a nutshell.

    You're letting their problems turn into your problems.

    If they can't afford to run their farm and care for their horses, that is NOT a reason for you personally to operate at a loss. The fact that they have 10 empty stalls means they are not losing board income because your horses are taking up space, so they should be able to give you a break on them, as long as you're paying for the feed and shavings on your own horses.

    If you agree to get in deeper by teaching lessons, etc., it's going to get worse if you don't stand up for yourself. Some people always claim to be "struggling" so they can get better deals, especially in the horse business.



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jul. 12, 2009
    Location
    Heart of the Midwest
    Posts
    573

    Default Doing the math removes the emotion?

    Not sure I agreed with the previous posters, but then I did the math.
    Round numbers, average
    Expenses:
    monthly board/horse at $250/month (pasture only where I am) x 2 horses is $500/month expenditure.
    monthly rent for apartment at $500 brings your total expenditures (and what they should be getting from you) of about $1,000/month

    Income:
    You work an 8 hr day/6 days per week at 4 weeks/month = $1,500/month

    Net: they should be paying you $500/month.
    You are responsible for internet, phone, tv, cable, etc.

    I would write the numbers down for them, present it as a business proposal and invite them to handle this as a business would. You pay your expenses. They pay you an income. Oh, AND they pay into your social security on a quarterly - just like I did for an independent contractor. Pull up a job description that outlines responsibilities and scope of the position, too.

    The opportunity to develop a teaching program is great, but who is providing the horses AND what would their cut be of your charges?

    Good luck!
    pace, path, balance, impulsion and ??

    Don't panic! Ralph Leroy Hill



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar. 19, 2003
    Posts
    374

    Default

    I don't think you would qualify as an independent contractor. You can check the goverments definition of one. That would mean that they are responsible for your taxes.
    For what ever its worth I agree with GreyCatFarm.
    M
    Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from behind, or a fool from any direction



  15. #15
    Join Date
    May. 12, 2008
    Posts
    3,874

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Monarch View Post
    I don't think you would qualify as an independent contractor. You can check the goverments definition of one. That would mean that they are responsible for your taxes.
    For what ever its worth I agree with GreyCatFarm.
    M
    Anyone can be an independent contractor - they will just 1099 her at the end of the year - you can be a 1099 employee in retail, restaurant, sales, etc. all depends on how the employer wants to handle things. As a 1099 employee, he does not have to worry about taking taxes out of her paycheck or offering benefits, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by GrayCatFarm View Post
    Not sure I agreed with the previous posters, but then I did the math.
    Round numbers, average
    Expenses:
    monthly board/horse at $250/month (pasture only where I am) x 2 horses is $500/month expenditure.
    monthly rent for apartment at $500 brings your total expenditures (and what they should be getting from you) of about $1,000/month

    Income:
    You work an 8 hr day/6 days per week at 4 weeks/month = $1,500/month

    Net: they should be paying you $500/month.
    You are responsible for internet, phone, tv, cable, etc.
    I somewhat agree - though the original poster needs to look around at the local area. There is nowhere you can get an apartment for $500/month in my area. When I was in college, $500/month got me an efficiency apartment - that is one roughly 20X20 room with a row of cabinets and vinyl floor in on corner (w/fridge, stove, sink) that served as the 'kitchen', two closets and the only other room was a small bathroom. When I was splitting with my ex and looking for apartment about 5 years later, that place was going for $750/month. This apartment came with free heat, but a/c cost, since it was part of electric and cable, phone, etc. was, of course, extra. If she is living in a one bedroom, she is easily looking at $1000/month.

    So, yeah, 6 days a week of 6 hours a day (as she stated she works) is only 36 hours a week, at $10/hour is $360/week and about $1440/month - so they could owe her some money. She should still look around and see what horse board and apartment rent go for. Also talk to them about how much of the lesson money she would be getting - a percentage or dollar amount per student, per lesson is common. This is especially true if the 'trainer' is bringing in the clients.



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Feb. 6, 2003
    Location
    Deep South
    Posts
    14,235

    Default

    That is not true. The IRS has a very clear definition of an independent contractor ans she ain't one !

    APPENDIX D
    TEST
    ]INTERNAL REVENUE SERVICE

    IRS Independent Contractor Test

    The IRS formerly used what has become known as the "Twenty Factor" test. Under pressure from Congress and from representatives of labor and business, it has recently attempted to simplify and refine the test, consolidating the twenty factors into eleven main tests, and organizing them into three main groups: behavioral control, financial control, and the type of relationship of the parties. Those factors appear below, along with comments regarding each one (source: IRS Publication 15-A, 2006 Edition, page 6; available for downloading from http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p15a.pdf (PDF).


    Behavioral control

    Facts that show whether the business has a right to direct and control how the worker does the task for which the worker is hired include the type and degree of—
    • Instructions the business gives the worker. An employee is generally subject to the business' instructions about when, where, and how to work. All of the following are examples of types of instructions about how to do work:
      • When and where to do the work
      • What tools or equipment to use
      • What workers to hire or to assist with the work
      • Where to purchase supplies and services
      • What work must be performed by a specified individual
      • What order or sequence to follow
      The amount of instruction needed varies among different jobs. Even if no instructions are given, sufficient behavioral control may exist if the employer has the right to control how the work results are achieved. A business may lack the knowledge to instruct some highly specialized professionals; in other cases, the task may require little or no instruction. The key consideration is whether the business has retained the right to control the details of a worker's performance or instead has given up that right.
    • Training the business gives the worker. An employee may be trained to perform services in a particular manner. Independent contractors ordinarily use their own methods.
    Financial control

    Facts that show whether the business has a right to control the business aspects of the worker's job include:
    • The extent to which the worker has unreimbursed business expenses. Independent contractors are more likely to have unreimbursed expenses than are employees. Fixed ongoing costs that are incurred regardless of whether work is currently being performed are especially important. However, employees may also incur unreimbursed expenses in connection with the services they perform for their business.
    • The extent of the worker's investment. An employee usually has no investment in the work other than his or her own time. An independent contractor often has a significant investment in the facilities he or she uses in performing services for someone else. However, a significant investment is not necessary for independent contractor status.
    • The extent to which the worker makes services available to the relevant market. An independent contractor is generally free to seek out business opportunities. Independent contractors often advertise, maintain a visible business location, and are available to work in the relevant market.
    • How the business pays the worker. An employee is generally guaranteed a regular wage amount for an hourly, weekly, or other period of time. This usually indicates that a worker is an employee, even when the wage or salary is supplemented by a commission. An independent contractor is usually paid by a flat fee for the job. However, it is common in some professions, such as law, to pay independent contractors hourly.
    • The extent to which the worker can realize a profit or loss. Since an employer usually provides employees a workplace, tools, materials, equipment, and supplies needed for the work, and generally pays the costs of doing business, employees do not have an opportunity to make a profit or loss. An independent contractor can make a profit or loss.
    Type of relationship

    Facts that show the parties' type of relationship include:
    • Written contracts describing the relationship the parties intended to create. This is probably the least important of the criteria, since what really matters is the nature of the underlying work relationship, not what the parties choose to call it. However, in close cases, the written contract can make a difference.
    • Whether the business provides the worker with employee-type benefits, such as insurance, a pension plan, vacation pay, or sick pay. The power to grant benefits carries with it the power to take them away, which is a power generally exercised by employers over employees. A true independent contractor will finance his or her own benefits out of the overall profits of the enterprise.
    • The permanency of the relationship. If the company engages a worker with the expectation that the relationship will continue indefinitely, rather than for a specific project or period, this is generally considered evidence that the intent was to create an employer-employee relationship.
    • The extent to which services performed by the worker are a key aspect of the regular business of the company. If a worker provides services that are a key aspect of the company's regular business activity, it is more likely that the company will have the right to direct and control his or her activities. For example, if a law firm hires an attorney, it is likely that it will present the attorney's work as its own and would have the right to control or direct that work. This would indicate an employer-employee relationship.



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jun. 24, 2005
    Posts
    659

    Default

    And who pays your medical insurance? If you teach lessons, you will also need insurance. It is probably time to take a good look at the situation, and stop expecting your parents to support you.

    Ask the BO how they arrived at their deal as well.



  18. #18
    Join Date
    Feb. 23, 2008
    Posts
    4,266

    Default

    I think you can approach this thusly:

    "You know, Bob, when you first took over the barn I thought I'd give a try to the proposal for work you offered. But I'm finding I can barely make ends meet and I'm doing far more work than before. I wrote down my hours, income and expenses (just rent, utilities, etc - not TV or "fun stuff") and I'd love it if we could sit down and discuss it."

    Then show them your written proposal (what would work for you - maybe bumped up a tiny bit so they can negotiate down a hundred bucks or so), and see what they say. If they refuse to consider it, say you're sorry but you are going to have to start looking for something else...

    Just an option.



  19. #19
    tattooedrdr Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajierene View Post
    Anyone can be an independent contractor - they will just 1099 her at the end of the year - you can be a 1099 employee in retail, restaurant, sales, etc. all depends on how the employer wants to handle things. As a 1099 employee, he does not have to worry about taking taxes out of her paycheck or offering benefits, etc.



    I somewhat agree - though the original poster needs to look around at the local area. There is nowhere you can get an apartment for $500/month in my area. When I was in college, $500/month got me an efficiency apartment - that is one roughly 20X20 room with a row of cabinets and vinyl floor in on corner (w/fridge, stove, sink) that served as the 'kitchen', two closets and the only other room was a small bathroom. When I was splitting with my ex and looking for apartment about 5 years later, that place was going for $750/month. This apartment came with free heat, but a/c cost, since it was part of electric and cable, phone, etc. was, of course, extra. If she is living in a one bedroom, she is easily looking at $1000/month.

    So, yeah, 6 days a week of 6 hours a day (as she stated she works) is only 36 hours a week, at $10/hour is $360/week and about $1440/month - so they could owe her some money. She should still look around and see what horse board and apartment rent go for. Also talk to them about how much of the lesson money she would be getting - a percentage or dollar amount per student, per lesson is common. This is especially true if the 'trainer' is bringing in the clients.

    I did look around and one bedrooms are from $600 and up with good living space, a pool, a fitness center etc.. Two bedrooms start at $700 and go up. I live in a 2 bed, 1 bath apartment, but like I said we are out a bit in the boonies. Grocery store is not too far, but to get to most places a good 15 mins, which isn't far, but if I lived in an apartment it would be outside my door so to speak.

    I had a talk with the BO and she is willing to work with me a little right now. The barn is having some money troubles again long story, but the BO is willing to give me a bit more right now and when the barn gets some more buisness then I will get more. I was just worried we would get in more boarders and I would see nothing for the more work I was doing. Right now its not that much work, but we only have 14 horses which is the least since I have been working here.

    Its more the mental aspect of working less and getting more benefits before and then in a months time working more hours and paying more. Just seemed wrong to me. I have a college education and do not have to be working here. I have stayed because I like the BO and the barn and I do not want to leave them without a worker.

    They need me more than I need them at the moment. I am not looking to screw them over, but I pointed out that if I left they would not be able to get a live in barn manager with the same deal as how would they eat. I am turning 25 this year and do not want to live off my mom. I need to be in a position where I can make money and get off my mom's pay roll. I think the BO and I are on the same page, so I am much happier.



  20. #20
    tattooedrdr Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bf1 View Post
    And who pays your medical insurance? If you teach lessons, you will also need insurance. It is probably time to take a good look at the situation, and stop expecting your parents to support you.

    Ask the BO how they arrived at their deal as well.
    Yup, I hate that my mother supports me. I really hate it. I have a college education and am about to turn 25. I am very lucky that my mom has the means to help me follow my dream in this crazy horse industry. Up until now I have been successfully teaching/training, but followed a trainer up here to work under who has since left the barn and now am just cleaning stalls which sucks!

    I really do hate being supported by my mom. I can not thank her enough for doing so, but I need to earn my own living and be an adult. I just do not want to waste my time in a dead end job if there is no future salary and money to be made. Like I said I think my BO and I worked it out.



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