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  1. #1
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    Jul. 22, 2009
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    Default Spinoff: How Far Trainers/Students Will Go To Win

    i saw a thread similar to this and it reminded me of my show series.

    So, I compete in this lower show series, thats kind of more for fun and a cheaper alternative to the A rated shows. This year though, some of the trainers have been switching mounts in the "B" ring(this contains w/t, ss, and beginner. all of which are little girls and boys in their first year or two of showing). what the trainers do its put the rider on a packer for the o/f and then on a really nice mover/easier eq horse for the flats. in the rule books, it says ring "B" is judged on the rider only. so technically there is no rule around it, but to me it's not fair. i show a great horse that kicks butt o/f but can't win a flat class for his life. to me, this is just the way life is. I show in the "A" ring, where you cannot switch mounts because eq is judged on the rider and hunter is judged on the horse. there are two little girls in my barn who are in there first year and their parents are just furious by the way some of these trainers/students will go to win.

    i'm just venting, no flames
    ~the rider does not teach the horse, it is the horse that teaches the rider~



  2. #2
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    Jul. 17, 2008
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    The Beach, Maryland
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    Default

    I think it's insane that you can switch horses. I've seen it done once here. Granted it was at a schooling show, but we were showing in the division, a little boy rode the gelding on the flat and then when o/f came, the trainer got on and rode it o/f. That's crazy in itself, but I understand it at a schooling show, if that ever happened at a rated, they should be disqualified.

    Anyway, back to the topic at hand - at a rated show, if you enter one horse in a division, you should only show that ONE horse. You can register multiple horses in the division and ride them separately if it's only o/f. If it's a normal division where it's 2 o/f and then a flat then that rider should only be riding that ONE horse that was registered.

    That's insane.
    Friend of bar.ka!
    Quote Originally Posted by MHM View Post
    GM quote of the day, regarding the correct way to do things:
    "There's correct, and then there's correct. If you're almost correct, that means you're wrong."



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct. 7, 2005
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    520

    Default

    whitehorse17 - I would talk to your trainer and ask her to attend the next meeting of the association to explain why this rule should be changed (in her opinion). If there are other trainers that feel the same way then she could ask that they also bring this up with the association.

    There will always be people that try to get around the rules. As I always tell my DD, winning is not everything.



  4. #4
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    Sep. 20, 2005
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    I don't see the problem here? If it is an equitation division, no matter how low level, you are allowed to switch horses between classes. I have been at AA shows where someone will ride one horse for the O/F portion, and a different horse for the flat. I don't see anything wrong or unfair about this. If it isn't against the rules, they aren't cheating, so why the rant? There is always going to be someone out there with a nicer horse and bigger name, why complain about it?
    "Are you yawning? You don't ride well enough to yawn. I can yawn, because I ride better than you. Meredith Michael Beerbaum can yawn. But you? Not so much..."
    -George Morris



  5. #5
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    Jan. 23, 2000
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    Virginia
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    Default

    If it isn't against the rules, they aren't cheating, so why the rant? There is always going to be someone out there with a nicer horse and bigger name, why complain about it?
    Completely agree. The rules apply to everyone equally.

    What's the problem? If they are not breaking the rules, particularly in a class that is judged on the rider only, I don't understand the need to vent and rant. Ride better than them, and it won't be a problem.

    There have been an awful lot of sour grapes threads on horse showing lately.
    ---
    They're small hearts.



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun. 17, 2001
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    down the road from bar.ka
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RxCate View Post

    Anyway, back to the topic at hand - at a rated show, if you enter one horse in a division, you should only show that ONE horse. You can register multiple horses in the division and ride them separately if it's only o/f. If it's a normal division where it's 2 o/f and then a flat then that rider should only be riding that ONE horse that was registered.

    That's insane.
    But totally legal to have somebody else flat or to show one o/f and hack another in most divisions at rated shows. Riders with more then one horse frequently get somebody else to hack one for them if they chose to hack both. Many have Pro do the O/F, or Pro do one and they do one and hack them themselves in Open divisions.

    I don't even get why putting a beginner kid on the safest one to "jump" and an easier gaited one for the flat is "doing anything to win" if they have enough horses for it and the client wants to pay for it to get their kid the safest miles possible at this level. It's is poles on the ground and "fences" not so far off it.


    Most of mine have not been hack winners at top levels either-I never suggested they limit the other Adults to one only or not allow a catch rider to hack it so I could win with a more mediocre mover. Heck, If I had, I might have won a few over worse movers then mine instead of the pastels.

    And, for the OP, what are you talking about that you cannot change horses because Hunters are on the horse and Eq is on the rider? Say what?

    This is, like, the fifth or sixth "that no fair" thread in the last few weeks (with that "bad judging" one turning into a delightful trainwreck before it disappeared). Starting to make me cranky.

    It's about being your best and learning from those who are better, not fixing it so nobody better the you or your horse is allowed in there. Back to the "Beginner Hunter Rider for bay horses born on Tuesday with non winning riders who ride no more then twice a week".
    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec. 22, 2005
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    Chicago. Again.
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by whitehorse17 View Post
    i saw a thread similar to this and it reminded me of my show series.

    So, I compete in this lower show series, thats kind of more for fun and a cheaper alternative to the A rated shows. This year though, some of the trainers have been switching mounts in the "B" ring(this contains w/t, ss, and beginner. all of which are little girls and boys in their first year or two of showing). what the trainers do its put the rider on a packer for the o/f and then on a really nice mover/easier eq horse for the flats. in the rule books, it says ring "B" is judged on the rider only. so technically there is no rule around it, but to me it's not fair. i show a great horse that kicks butt o/f but can't win a flat class for his life. to me, this is just the way life is. I show in the "A" ring, where you cannot switch mounts because eq is judged on the rider and hunter is judged on the horse. there are two little girls in my barn who are in there first year and their parents are just furious by the way some of these trainers/students will go to win.

    i'm just venting, no flames
    Maybe I'm just getting old but the entire premise of this question has me lost. Is this eq or hunters? There's an entire "ring judged on the rider"? eq might be judged on the rider and hunter might be judged on the horse, but they don't co-exist in one class/division. Maybe if I could understand the question I would understand the problem?

    Parents in their first year of showdom should be firing out questions, not expectations. Sets a bad precedent, which is apparently coming home to roost.
    ExchangeHunterJumper.com
    Now promoting sale horses from North Carolina to the Netherlands. Follow us on Facebook.



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan. 1, 2003
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    Tennessee
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    Default

    I don't understand the problem, either. If the classes are judged only on the rider, and both mounts are appropriate for said rider, then where is the issue? Maybe the o/f horse doesn't play well with others in the flat class or the flat horse doesn't/isn't able to jump any longer or the kid is in the process of switching from one horse to the other and isn't yet completely comfortable on the new horse or....you get the picture.

    And switching horses in a hunter division would be a pretty stupid move, since neither horse would be likely to go champion or reserve that way. Now, switching riders or showing multiple horses over fences and then just hacking the nice one is perfectly logical and, again, I don't have a problem with it.

    Seriously. You are there to show the judge how great you and your horse are together. Who gives a flying flip what the other riders are doing, as long as they play by the rules?



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar. 12, 2006
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    Default

    There have been an awful lot of sour grapes threads on horse showing lately.
    I agree. You can not control the quality of horses at a show. Period. You can only enforce the requirements of a division. Period. You are NOT guaranteed a ribbon. Period. You may lose. People lose all the time. You may lose to a cheater, a more expensive horse, a cheaper horse, or homeless child riding a blind pony from New Holland. McLain Ward has the right to show Sapphire in the open walk trot rail on the ground class at the county show.

    Think of it as a good life lesson. Losing builds character and teaches perseverence and how to value experience even if you don't get a reward. It really helps when you start working a job.

    Showing is so not special if you win a ribbon every time. Savor it as a reward for a job well done, not as a given for showing up.



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug. 19, 2007
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    822

    Default

    I'm confused about the original question too. Can you clarify?

    I sometimes have horses at the shows who are just there for mileage and are not ready to jump yet. Maybe they will get ridden in a flat class. And maybe their owner, who wants to jump at the show, owns or can borrow another horse to ride that is ready to jump at a show. Is this the kind of thing you are talking about? If it's an eq division, the rider's points are used to determine the division championship; if it's a hunter division, the total points from each horse is what are calculated, so there really isn't any advantage to hacking a different horse that is a better mover unless you are really concerned with winning the hack only, not the championship. Why is this cheating?



  11. #11
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    Jul. 22, 2009
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    where it snows too much
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    Default

    maybe i phrased this the wrong way. i guess what i should have said is that the points go towards the child, not the horse, even in hunter in the "B" ring. so let me make up an example. Lets say the rider's name is george. george is doing short stirrup. for his over fences courses, they put george on sophie. sophie isnt the nicest mover, but she is a packer and wins the over fences. for the flat classes, the trainer puts george on rowdy. rowdy is a 10 mover and is a shoe in against the other horses. what i'm complaining about is that this is a classic series! its not rated, i'll call it a series to get you prepared for rated shows. i just dont understand why the trainers have such big egos and switch the horses for the kids! it teaches them nothing. once they get to the a rated shows, they won't be able to change horses!
    ~the rider does not teach the horse, it is the horse that teaches the rider~



  12. #12
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    Aug. 19, 2007
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    I have no idea what a "classic series" is. You aren't going to see that at the rated shows either. Is it short stirrup eq or short stirrup hunters or is it not specified? If hunters, points should be from one horse, but at that level since it's an unrated division even at the rated shows, management can run it however they want.

    I sort of think that complaining about the protocol in a short stirrup division is like complaining about the judging in a walk-trot poles class, but hey, that's just me.



  13. #13
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    Oct. 3, 2007
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    I'm still confused. If George is riding short stirrup, than the class is judged on George not on Sophie and Rowdy so who cares? If it is a series, George can ride Suzy and Ricky next time and if he wins again he still gets the points. Since the classes are judged on his ability what does it matter and how is that not fair?

    It's been a long time since I was in SS and DD is an eventer but SS is still judged on equitation right?



  14. #14
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    Nov. 9, 2007
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    It's fair. It's allowed by the rules. They are not breaking any rules. It's giving the rider a huge advantage, but it's also an advantage that's allowed. Theoretically, you could go ahead and do it too. Would i spend twice as much money to ship just so i can have a different horse for a flat class? No. Even if I did have the money, i still wouldn't. it's too inconvenient, i think. But some people have money to throw away.

    That being said, i think that's RIDICULOUS. But I've seen it. Put it this way: maybe those kids will steal all the blues, but at least your kid is probably grateful and tries his/her best on his/her one pony, fancy or not. The other kids will probably grow up to be brats who expect to be winning. Take it as a humbling experience for your child.
    (|--Sarah--|)

    Blitz <3 & Leap of Faith <3



  15. #15
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    Mar. 15, 2008
    Location
    Atlanta
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    Sometimes at small local shows, the division will be half hunter, half eq. They do this because they don't have time to run xrails as a hunter division, then as an eq division, then 18" as a hunter division, then as an eq division, then 2'... You get the idea. So they just combine em.

    And apparently in this one, points are tallied by rider only. So if Georgie brings a new and better horse every time and keeps on winning, he is "circuit champion" for that division for the year. But poor Susie has only one horse and keeps losing because she can't change and thereby gain the greatest possible advantage in each type of class.

    Now, OP, you haven't been too bad so this is not entirely directed at you. But now I have to vent.

    I too am getting tired of the whining threads. No matter what people say - "my problem is bad show management, not that I lost", "my problem is it's stupid, not that I lost", "my problem is that they cheated, not that I lost" - we all see through the excuses and know it's really about losing. Because we all see those same problems and we don't complain; the rest of us just realize that losing is a part of life and that life is not "fair".

    I vote that the word "fair" be banned from all future discussions of winning and losing on this forum. Who is with me?

    Here's why: "fair" is a non-issue. Right and wrong are the only issues. It is wrong to teach your children that things should be "fair". It is right to teach your children to treat others fairly. See the difference? Now, who is with me: shall we start a group ban on the word "fair" in all discussions of winning at shows? Perhaps we can create a new sticky.

    Now, who will be in charge of enforcing it and making sure no one "unfairly" gets around it??

    It's nothing against you, OP. Just bad timing. My advice? If you can't beat em, join em. Nothing wrong with following the rules. Short of that, just suggest that the rule be changed to accumulate points by horse-rider combination. Then little Georgie can still show multiple horses; he just can't hack all of them. Or he can still get first over fences every time on Horse A, and win the hack every time on Horse B, never get champion or reserve at any single show, but still get enough points to end up circuit champion on one and reserve on the other. Good luck to you. Sorry for MY rant. (By the way - my little speech? I am turning into my mother. Lord, that is terrifying to read over! Those are her exact words. I can hear her voice saying them. Wow. Had to happen some time, I s'pose.)
    Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight, / And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way, / Do not go gentle into that good night. -- Dylan Thomas



  16. #16
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    Oct. 3, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGsuperpony View Post
    I vote that the word "fair" be banned from all future discussions of winning and losing on this forum. Who is with me?

    I'm with you! Think I'll make "Life isn't Fair" my sig line.

    And don't worry, I'm sounding more and more like my mother everyday. It is truly terrifying!



  17. #17
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    i'm just venting, no flames
    In addition to the fair rule I'd like to move that all "venting, please no flames" requests be quarantined to blogs. Or chronicle of my horse. Or wherever you can turn off comments.
    ExchangeHunterJumper.com
    Now promoting sale horses from North Carolina to the Netherlands. Follow us on Facebook.



  18. #18
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    Jul. 11, 2008
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    ok so i just feel like venting as well! haha

    I just feel like saying I got jipped at the last local schooling show, but honestly i dont care too much becaue its a schooling show. Still... honestly... In an Eq flat... how the heck does a rider pick up the wrong lead in front of the judge and canter around 1/2 the ring before switching... pin above someone who had perfect transitions?

    ohhh well. This is why I prefer the rated shows with well known judges. They pin based on what exactly the riders are supposed to be judged...

    I still kicked butt though!



  19. #19
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    There is an old Chinese saying that has origins in the beginning of recorded history. That saying is "Shit happens. Get over it.".
    Thus do we growl that our big toes have,
    at this moment, been thrown up from below!



  20. #20
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    And I thought this would be a good, juicy thread about sordid events. Not fair! I was gypped!
    EDDIE WOULD GO



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