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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug. 21, 2009
    Posts
    12

    Default RESCUES PLEASE BE RESPONSIBLE

    40358.1

    hi again for all those that read the last post thinks got better. the workers comp kicked in and placed 8 horses with 5 to go in the next 2 weeks.
    any way this is a topic that i thought to bring up due to a recent issue i was witness to.
    i have a friend who is on disability who saved money to buy herself a horse now that she has a house and land of course the right zoning also. she put up a shelter and a turnout for the horse of the future. then she went looking sadly i suggested to look at a rescue horse one who needs to have a chance. so she spent time looking for a kids horse due to her disability she cant fall. she knows how to ride but has past injuries that make it life or death if she falls. so she needed the nice kids horse not too big and broke to the teeth.
    any way she found a mare who she was told was 8 or 9 kids or hubby horse. on the broker page of ac4h. she talked to christy more than once. i know this lady she is a fanatic and will triple check facts. any way she after a week felt this was the right horse and purchased her.
    when we picked her up i kept looking at her and asked her her age over and over. the girl who helped load her since there was no place to try this mare out did not know. barb of course said she was 9. looked younger. she loaded ok and off we go home.
    so when we get her home my friend sees she has leg swelling where she seems to hit herself and gets her shod. she is snotting so she gets antibiotic and wormed. shots of course.
    so after the snots are gone her sister a exp. rider starts to work with this mare. who now we know is not 9 but 4. maybe even 3. due to calling cristy again.
    well the horse shows she is green. and stiff backed. so her sister works with her in a ring hoping to get her to get broke well enough to sell her since my friend would not be able to ride her.
    well the day they took her out of the ring to a grassy area between the ring and stall the horse starts to bronc droppes by friends sister and tramples her. she has to be airlifted to the hospital in the city. she has major injuries to her side and head.
    so my friend tries to get in touch with cristy who is not returning her calls. she will not return her emails.
    now i know rescues do great things for the horses but please all of you please dont sell a horse that is under 8 to beginners. please dont lie about the age had she known this horse was 3 or 4 she would never have taken her. a 8-9 was still younger than she wanted but the horse looked good on vid. please allow all those even if you are a go between a chance to try the horse out. i had gone to ride this horse. but there was no place and no tack offered to try her out. the girl seemed to be in a hurry. and if a horse doesnt work out it would be a real good thing to try to work something out to even switch horses to one that may be a better match. which was not a option since cristy will not contact us off her list which i have been removed from. and she only answered on the list to accuse us of doing something to this horse.
    [edit]
    cindy

    cdenning2@gmail.com
    Last edited by Moderator 1; Aug. 22, 2009 at 01:57 PM.



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul. 28, 2004
    Location
    Central New York State
    Posts
    1,458

    Default

    I am aware of this situation and in your report you failed to say that the person has had the horse for 2 months. I know from my own experience with horses, that a lot can happen in the span of 8 weeks. There was no contact regarding this horse prior to the fall off the horse by your friends sister. Christy did respond to you on the list and gave the option, through you as the messenger to the person that bought this horse, that she would intake the mare as a donation.

    At the top of the broker horse pages there is a clear disclaimer that equates essentially to- caveat emptor= buyer beware
    ----------------------------------------

    Information and Disclaimer: Another Chance 4 Horses is acting as intermediary providing the horses with a larger viewing audience and additional time versus the short time they get through the auction ring, if they get that opporutnity at all. We do not own these horses. The information given regarding the horse(s) is approximated (best guess) not guaranteed by Another Chance 4 Horses.

    ----------------------------------------
    There are NO guarantees, expressed, written or implied, about any of the broker horses. Obviously it's unfortunate that your friends sister took a bad fall from the horse and speaking for myself, I hope she's doing better.



  3. #3
    Join Date
    May. 31, 2007
    Location
    Aiken, SC
    Posts
    4,696

    Default

    I barely know anything about that place, but even I know Christi is on vacation for two weeks. She is probably not even getting the messages.



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun. 1, 2005
    Location
    Floral City , Fl.
    Posts
    4,257

    Default

    I couldnt get past the TITLE: spelled wrong. If you want to be taken seriously please at least spell correctly. Sorry, just hit me wrong to see bad spelling.
    Sandy
    www.sugarbrook.com
    hunter/jumper ponies



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug. 24, 2008
    Posts
    160

    Default

    same person here http://forums.delphiforums.com/alexb...es?msg=38831.1

    this woman states that she has 2 older mares in need of homes who were used to being ridden by "kids". I wonder why she didn't offer one of these to her friend, especially when her friend was looking for a first horse!
    Last edited by MoJo; Aug. 24, 2009 at 09:04 PM. Reason: horrendous grammatical error



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov. 15, 2005
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    7,629

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by soduswoods View Post
    40358.1

    hi again for all those that read the last post thinks got better. the workers comp kicked in and placed 8 horses with 5 to go in the next 2 weeks.

    any way this is a topic that i thought to bring up due to a recent issue i was witness to.
    i have a friend who is on disability who saved money to buy herself a horse now that she has a house and land of course the right zoning also. she put up a shelter and a turnout for the horse of the future. then she went looking

    sadly i suggested to look at a rescue horse one who needs to have a chance. so she spent time looking for a kids horse due to her disability she cant fall. she knows how to ride but has past injuries that make it life or death if she falls. so she needed the nice kids horse not too big and broke to the teeth.

    any way she found a mare who she was told was 8 or 9 kids or hubby horse. on the broker page of ac4h. she talked to christy more than once. i know this lady she is a fanatic and will triple check facts. any way she after a week felt this was the right horse and purchased her.

    when we picked her up i kept looking at her and asked her her age over and over. the girl who helped load her since there was no place to try this mare out did not know. barb of course said she was 9. looked younger. she loaded ok and off we go home.

    so when we get her home my friend sees she has leg swelling where she seems to hit herself and gets her shod. she is snotting so she gets antibiotic and wormed. shots of course.

    so after the snots are gone her sister a exp. rider starts to work with this mare. who now we know is not 9 but 4. maybe even 3. due to calling cristy again.

    well the horse shows she is green. and stiff backed. so her sister works with her in a ring hoping to get her to get broke well enough to sell her since my friend would not be able to ride her.

    well the day they took her out of the ring to a grassy area between the ring and stall the horse starts to bronc droppes by friends sister and tramples her. she has to be airlifted to the hospital in the city. she has major injuries to her side and head.

    so my friend tries to get in touch with cristy who is not returning her calls. she will not return her emails.

    now i know rescues do great things for the horses but please all of you please dont sell a horse that is under 8 to beginners. please dont lie about the age had she known this horse was 3 or 4 she would never have taken her. a 8-9 was still younger than she wanted but the horse looked good on vid. please allow all those even if you are a go between a chance to try the horse out. i had gone to ride this horse. but there was no place and no tack offered to try her out. the girl seemed to be in a hurry.

    and if a horse doesnt work out it would be a real good thing to try to work something out to even switch horses to one that may be a better match. which was not a option since cristy will not contact us off her list which i have been removed from. and she only answered on the list to accuse us of doing something to this horse.

    if any one in upstate ny has a horse for a beginner that will swap with this one. sized around 14 h let me know i can contact her and pass on the email add. and phone number. this horse prob will be ok with a location that has a round pen and riding ring. she had a pasture and a open field. of course her savings are in this horse and cant afford to pay. but still wants something. even if it needs to be fed up or is aged. not a problem. just safe.

    I gave some nice horses away but my horses are too young. under 8.she wanted something older.
    cindy

    cdenning2@gmail.com
    Why would you shoot the messenger? It just makes you all look defensive. As for Christy being on vacation, it appears she HAS responded to the OP, so it's not that she is NOT aware of the situation due to her vacation that there is a lack of action.

    Yes so very much can happen in 2 months... when you FEED the horse and get it treated for an upper respiratory/snots infection.

    Many would say the OP and her friend should have known better. I get that. I do.

    Thing is, if the rescue is there to protect horses, they too [as experienced horseman who know that a horse once off the lot and fed well and attended to by the Vet and farrier may become a horse unlike the one on the lot] should have recognized this as a bad fit FOR THE SAKE OF THE HORSE at least.

    Exposure for the horses is great, unless they end up in a home that is a bad fit who then marches them off to the next broker down the road who does not have a rescue advertising the horses, or worse who ships straight to slaughter [not saying the OP would, but many would simply cut their losses!].
    How is that helping the horses?

    This is actually a perfect example of a horse who could theoretically go from the frying pan right into the fire.

    If the bottom line of this tale is 'Buyer Beware' then lets make sure everyone in future hears that message loud and clear, shall we? Truly it's just sheer luck this lady was not hurt and that her sister was not killed. How long can that kind of luck hold out?



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr. 26, 2009
    Location
    Stroudsburg, PA
    Posts
    335

    Default

    Going with Marli on this. I got a horse just recently from the broker page on AC4H's site. They have a disclaimer right there about broker owned horses, and I'll tell you right now other than looking the same as the horse on the broker page he was far from the same horse. He needs a lot of work that he didn't need when the video was taken. Christy is not at fault here and you have no right to be complaining about that especially since she offered to take the horse. It was a broker owned horse (as was mine) which means if you get any info at all on it, it will possibly be incorrect and you're lucky you were even allowed to go there as a lot of brokers don't like people coming around. They thought my boy was probably around 16-18 he's actually 11-15 though they can't pin point it more than that until his teeth are better. He has major hoof problems as well. This is a broker problem, not the rescues. They only try to get these horses better exposed otherwise they will most likely never see the light of day. And Christy has been wonderful through the whole process, though I know she is or was on vacation so it may be hard to get in touch with her right now and she'll probably be a little backed up when she gets home. I do hope your friend will be ok.
    The one good thing about repeating your mistakes is that you know when to cringe.



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jul. 28, 2004
    Location
    Central New York State
    Posts
    1,458

    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    If the bottom line of this tale is 'Buyer Beware' then lets make sure everyone in future hears that message loud and clear, shall we?
    Angela- please don't speculate or try to assume that you would know how any conversations go between Christy and any interested potential new owners. Speculation is never a good thing and unless you were at Christy's standing beside her while any calls come in it results in nothing but one of those nasty he said/she said scenes..... And I'll be sure to advise Christy that she should increase the size of the font on her disclaimer per your suggestion. BTW, there is also a release of liability signed by all new owners of broker horses. You can read the details here (to avoid further speculation)

    http://www.ac4h.com/BOReleaseAgreement.htm



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov. 15, 2005
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    7,629

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Marli View Post
    Angela- please don't speculate or try to assume that you would know how any conversations go between Christy and any interested potential new owners. Speculation is never a good thing and unless you were at Christy's standing beside her while any calls come in it results in nothing but one of those nasty he said/she said scenes..... And I'll be sure to advise Christy that she should increase the size of the font on her disclaimer per your suggestion. BTW, there is also a release of liability signed by all new owners of broker horses. You can read the details here (to avoid further speculation)

    http://www.ac4h.com/BOReleaseAgreement.htm
    Aren't you sweet? No, no I am not speculating on any conversations, did I imply that? I was speaking about your disclaimer and that perhaps it should be reinforced so that the next time someone is more certain of their purchase.

    Yes a release of liability is nice, for the broker... but what about the horse? Isn't this about the horse? Saving horses? Seems that there is no liability signed to keep the horse safe [only the broker] and in this case, in other hands this horse could be in serious danger. Again.



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep. 15, 2006
    Posts
    1,511

    Default I can understand rescues HELPING brokers get out from under horses, but...

    Maybe this should be used as a reason to start a point system for what brokers they allow to advertise horses on their website. MOST brokers buy and sell horses all day long EVERYDAY, that means the horses listed on a rescue website are probably the ones they are having a hard time reselling, or have problems that aren't fixable. If the broker intentionally lies about horses they list, age is pretty easy to tell, I don't mean a 4 yo could be a 5 year old, but when the discrepancy is 10 years, most horse people can tell that. Or if they lie about other issues, then they lose their right to advertise there, after say 2 issues...
    " iCOTH " window/bumper stickers. Wood Routed Stall and Farm Signs
    http://www.bluemooncustomsigns.com



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar. 8, 2004
    Location
    Baltimore, MD
    Posts
    20,988

    Default

    She said she didn't know the horse personally and therefore can not vouch for any of the information and offered to take the horse when things didn't work out. What more could you possibly hope for in this type of situation? It sucks that some one got hurt but is not because the rescue was not being RESPONSIBLE.
    I place tons of horses straight off the track via this very forum. That could be a double whammy because not only do I not know the horses other than what I have been told, I also do not know you guys other than how you have presented yourself. So far I believe I have been incredibly lucky and all the horses have ended up with great homes with people who couldn't be happier with them. I know that is dumb luck and will probably bite me in the butt at some point but in the meantime I have saved a lot of horses and made a lot of people happy. We all do the best we can with what we have to work with.



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jul. 27, 2007
    Location
    Behind the Orange Curtain
    Posts
    9,694

    Default

    Sorry, but as someone who bought a "husband safe horse" and managed to be bucked off and break every bone in my body within 3 months, I will say that if there's one thing I've learned it's this- even the safest horses can become frightened and insecure, learn bad habits, develop pain, or for 10000 other reasons change in temperament/personality after change of ownership. And if you're buying from a broker who doesn't even know the horse it's just a crap shoot.

    I'm just not one for jumping to blame the person the horse was purchased from. Even if it was a broker. And I think AC4H has limited exposure to the broker horses they help place, and their website is pretty clear about that.



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Aug. 22, 2005
    Posts
    3,788

    Default

    It would seem that this sort of thing is not a "Rescue" at all, but merely one more layer of middlemen. They apparently don't know anything about the horses except what a probable liar tells them, they are happy to repeat these lies to every dumb "I want a rescue horse" person that comes down the pike, and then wash their hands of it. And squeek something about "caveat emptor" when somebody has a problem.

    Oh, I forgot... they'll take the horse back if you donate it back. As in if what you get doesn't work out for you, you are no better off returning the horse than you are taking it out back and shooting it.

    You don't get the "real story" on the horse, you are (according to one poster) in many cases discouraged from making any assessment in person yourself, the "Rescue" you are dealing with apparently makes no attempt to verify any info or do anything to give your odds of "getting a good match" a boost, you have no recourse if the horse proves to be a menance. So this outfit is different from the crooked horse dealer down the street just how......?



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Aug. 22, 2009
    Posts
    30

    Default

    Here are the videos of the horse when it was evaluated by AC4H. Christy doesn't usually put her children on the horses so must have been confident on that day that this horse was a pretty decent horse. Also, there was a picture of the horses teeth on the website. I really am not good at reading teeth but the teeth did not look like the teeth of a 3 to 4 year old. Christy gets as much information and tries to portray it as accurately as she can.





    6-16-14 - Palomino mare blaze - babysitter aka hubby horse type of mount quiet walk, trot and will roll in to canter.
    Videos of different level riders and ages riding this nice mare:

    Walk with Selina - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xp0wwxSDqmc

    Walk/trot - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DyaqoQSgT0

    Canter - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68FtlNq0qFs
    ****

    I have a horse from AC4H and I also took a broker horse that was going to ship to slaughter and whose bail was generously raised by AC4H yahoo group and ABR. Both of my horses were as described ... except my black gaited gelding is only 13 and not late teens. I have had several people look at his teeth (vet, farrier, horse hauler) and he has been aged at 12, 15 or 16 and really really old! The only reason that I know that he is 13 is I discovered his freezebrand (about 6 months after I had him ... kind of embarassing but he has a really thick mane and is very tall so I never really pushed his mane over to the opposite side until I had to give him shots for an abscess).

    I asked Christy about the gaited gelding because at the time I wanted one that was beginner safe. She told me that she will never say a horse is beginner safe because she doesn't get to evaluate them that long and every rider has a different level. She said that he was safe enough for an advanced beginner. I believe she is right. He was ridden every day at the QT farm and did fine. I have not ridden him a lot but he has done well. And, yes, I have fallen off of him ... another embarassing moment as we seem to have to do these things with audiences ... but I can't say I fault the horse ... since I was the one that couldn't get my fat butt up on him and got hung up half on and off ... he did buck me as I was straddling his rear end ... All I can say is it is a long way down from a 16.3 hand horse ... but having an audience really gives you an incentive to jump right back up and head on out!!!

    Oh, I guess that is one thing that was incorrect on the broker listing. He was listed as 15.3 hands or something like that and he ended up being 16.3. Not a big deal as I was more interested in temperament.

    As far as relying on the disclaimer, it is there for a reason. A person that needs a dead broke horse should carefully evaluate a horse over several sessions or on a trial basis. Christy offered to take the horse into the rescue when the owner said she was going to send the horse to auction.



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Aug. 22, 2009
    Posts
    30

    Default

    One time my truly beginner safe gelding, tripped and fell while I was riding him. He fell all the way down. First time and only time I have ever had that happen. Don't know what happened. Luckily, I only broke my elbow ... which is really painful! Scout busted his lip but otherwise seemed ok. We had a nice long walk home!

    My neighbor came out to check on us because I tell all of the neighbors if they see me walking next to the horse on the way home it is because I fell off and couldn't get back on! :-) Scout is only around 16.1 hands!!



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Dec. 4, 2002
    Location
    Dungeon of the Ivory Tower
    Posts
    20,393

    Default

    G&B - could you clarify why you feel the need to villify AC4H? I doubt it can be based on the OP, since it is poorly written, with numerous misspellings, and grammatical and syntax errors, and is the very first post by this person - I state this because the presentation certainly affects one's perception of the situation. Do you have the relevant facts, except what you read in that post?
    www.specialhorses.org
    a 501(c)3 organization helping 501(c)3 equine rescues




  17. #17
    Join Date
    Apr. 4, 2006
    Location
    An American Living In Ireland
    Posts
    5,660

    Default

    I'm guessing it's stories like these that make rescuers think, "why the heck would anyone do this."

    Really that beginner safe/disabled safe horse is a very rare find and it's going to take a very long time to find one suitable.

    I don't think it makes the job of the rescue very easy when people start bad mouthing over what seems to be a very quick "have to have a horse." Maybe your friend shouldn't be looking for anything to ride at all, just a much older horse that needs to be pampered.

    Terri
    COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

    "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.



  18. #18
    Join Date
    Nov. 22, 2003
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    7,136

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by soduswoods View Post
    40358.1

    i have a friend who is on disability who saved money to buy herself a horse now that she has a house and land of course the right zoning also. she put up a shelter and a turnout for the horse of the future. then she went looking sadly i suggested to look at a rescue horse one who needs to have a chance. so she spent time looking for a kids horse due to her disability she cant fall. she knows how to ride but has past injuries that make it life or death if she falls.
    WHY would this person get a horse of unknown background, sight unseen, from a low-end dealer? Not very "RESPONCIBLE".

    Cute horse, by the way.
    Last edited by nightsong; Aug. 22, 2009 at 06:10 AM.



  19. #19
    Join Date
    Nov. 9, 2005
    Location
    uk
    Posts
    15,296

    Default

    surely one would get in touch with the RDA if one needs a quiet horse and if they know any that way your dealing with people that understand the needs of people with a disability of some sort..

    when buying any horse rescue or not you take a proffessional person with you
    and that that caperble of assessing your riding skills to that of the horse be offered

    if how ever there is a problem with a commercial dealer/ broker and one isnt statisfied
    then there are options
    1-- surely you have the same type of laws as we have in uk
    as a horse is saleble comodity comes under the sale of goods act
    2-- if the horse is not fit for the job its intended for and has been describe as safe horse that doesnt buck or rear bite or have any other vices ie windsucks cribs weaving etc
    or isnt 100% on the road to shoebox or clip which should be all said in an advert
    then it comes under the trade describtion act as not been suited for the job intented
    be that private or commercial

    a commercial dealer of a good repretation will give the money back and warrant the horses and ponies sold and or exchange them for something more suitable

    a rescue centre always has a no - and therefore will take the horses back if one cant afford themas they are the owners of the horse and normally all horses and ponies up for offer in a rescue centre here in uk are all passported and micro chipped same with proper commercial dealers so there fore one can know the horse where abouts etc

    and sometimes its the new people looking for horses that give of the impression
    they can do xyz when in truth they cant and often over horse themselves either by the height of the horse or the knowledge of the horse
    meaning the horse has way to much expreince than the potential owner
    and sometimes the the trianer which is not understand not a trianer unless it has qualifications to warrant being called a trianer or has relevent expreince ie a proven background
    often look for them selves and not for the person its for so on that note get a qualified accredited trainer of which you can find them on any site association attached to the FEI AS THEY ALL HAVE LISTED ACCREDITED TRIANERS


    and as the owner has the horse for over 2months -- as somelse stated a lot can happen if they had a problem should have said so way before now



  20. #20
    Join Date
    May. 9, 2008
    Posts
    2,887

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by soduswoods View Post
    40358.1

    hi again for all those that read the last post thinks got better. the workers comp kicked in and placed 8 horses with 5 to go in the next 2 weeks.
    any way this is a topic that i thought to bring up due to a recent issue i was witness to.
    i have a friend who is on disability who saved money to buy herself a horse now that she has a house and land of course the right zoning also. she put up a shelter and a turnout for the horse of the future. then she went looking sadly i suggested to look at a rescue horse one who needs to have a chance. so she spent time looking for a kids horse due to her disability she cant fall. she knows how to ride but has past injuries that make it life or death if she falls. so she needed the nice kids horse not too big and broke to the teeth.
    any way she found a mare who she was told was 8 or 9 kids or hubby horse. on the broker page of ac4h. she talked to christy more than once. i know this lady she is a fanatic and will triple check facts. any way she after a week felt this was the right horse and purchased her.
    when we picked her up i kept looking at her and asked her her age over and over. the girl who helped load her since there was no place to try this mare out did not know. barb of course said she was 9. looked younger. she loaded ok and off we go home.
    so when we get her home my friend sees she has leg swelling where she seems to hit herself and gets her shod. she is snotting so she gets antibiotic and wormed. shots of course.
    so after the snots are gone her sister a exp. rider starts to work with this mare. who now we know is not 9 but 4. maybe even 3. due to calling cristy again.
    well the horse shows she is green. and stiff backed. so her sister works with her in a ring hoping to get her to get broke well enough to sell her since my friend would not be able to ride her.
    well the day they took her out of the ring to a grassy area between the ring and stall the horse starts to bronc droppes by friends sister and tramples her. she has to be airlifted to the hospital in the city. she has major injuries to her side and head.
    so my friend tries to get in touch with cristy who is not returning her calls. she will not return her emails.
    now i know rescues do great things for the horses but please all of you please dont sell a horse that is under 8 to beginners. please dont lie about the age had she known this horse was 3 or 4 she would never have taken her. a 8-9 was still younger than she wanted but the horse looked good on vid. please allow all those even if you are a go between a chance to try the horse out. i had gone to ride this horse. but there was no place and no tack offered to try her out. the girl seemed to be in a hurry. and if a horse doesnt work out it would be a real good thing to try to work something out to even switch horses to one that may be a better match. which was not a option since cristy will not contact us off her list which i have been removed from. and she only answered on the list to accuse us of doing something to this horse.
    if any one in upstate ny has a horse for a beginner that will swap with this one. sized around 14 h let me know i can contact her and pass on the email add. and phone number. this horse prob will be ok with a location that has a round pen and riding ring. she had a pasture and a open field. of course her savings are in this horse and cant afford to pay. but still wants something. even if it needs to be fed up or is aged. not a problem. just safe.
    I gave some nice horses away but my horses are too young. under 8.she wanted something older.
    cindy

    cdenning2@gmail.com
    I'm sorry, but I don't see any fault here.

    And to add...if your friend is in the physical condition that she is...by that I mean, "Her past injuries make it life or death if she falls..." It seems to me that she would be much better served to have worked directly with AC4H through the rescue or better yet...find a pasture puff to love. God only knows there are millions out there who are free.

    Please don't blame the messenger ok?
    I Loff My Quarter Horse & I love Fenway Bartholomule cliques

    Just somebody with a positive outlook on life...go ahead...hate me for that.



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    Replies: 16
    Last Post: Dec. 8, 2009, 09:40 PM
  5. Replies: 1246
    Last Post: Feb. 5, 2009, 11:08 AM

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randomness