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  1. #21
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    It's ok for nonprofits to pay people.

    They should just be very careful to avoid the appearance of impropriety.

    If the going rate for barn help is 4$/hr and someone is getting paid 12$ an hour as barn help and that person is the daughter or boy/girl friend of someone in the nonprofit... someone might have a legitimate beef.

    If someone running a medium nonprofit is paid 30K a year plus benefits - and that is in keeping with what similar professions/skills are earning in the area.... and the person is doing a good job - it's not a crime.

    Some of you may not be aware that philanthropy is an industry and a very profitable one that many people make careers of. Salary is an issue just as it is in any other profession. In fact, salary surveys are done.

    Get ahold of any issue of the Chronicle of Philantrophy - it's the Wall Street Journal of the nonprofit field. http://philanthropy.com/

    Oh Look - there is a horse related article in this issue! Horses in the Hood!

    Everyone running a rescue should be reading it. Philanthropy is a business - treat it like a business and paid staff or not - you'll bring in a helluva lot more money than selling cookies and raffle tickets.

    (I don't know how to get overcome the "harpy" factor - the ones who screech that someone isn't wearing the right color hairshirt or living in a hole. Those are the "my halo is shinier than yours" people who are pathetic morons.) Only suggestion I can make is to become more sophisticated and knowledgeable about running a nonprofit and the harpies won't matter.

    "harpy" is not to be confused with "donor" or "potential donor".


    I can't think of a reason a BOG member should be receiving any compensation - unless that BOG member is also acting in a direct advisory capacity or something. But again - that needs to be a very transparent and arms length transaction - and those are looked at closely by the IRS. Self dealing is a no no..


    If Lori does not already receive the Chronicle - maybe a Good Samaritan could purchase a subscription in her name? This publication is geared towards the industry as a whole - it could be of enormous benefit in her work. Every equine rescue should be reading this paper.



  2. #22
    Join Date
    Feb. 15, 2004
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    Ontario
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    Quote Originally Posted by EqTrainer View Post
    I think you are missing my point entirely. HOW is someone supposed to work full time running a rescue AND make any money to live on? Is running a rescue only for the independently wealthy? Everyone has to eat.
    I don't think I am missing the point. It could be stated that the rescue is paying such individual so much an hour for rescue work. It could be stated that there is a fixed amount on each transaction covering work of said person. I am sure that many people would agree to a legitimate amount for work done. When a rescuer also works outside the rescue and can support herself personally, there is no problem. When a rescue works full-time with the rescue and his/her spouse seems to always be available to help the rescue, I believe some questions need to be asked as to HOW they support their family, EAT and clothe themselves... If there is money going from the rescue to their personal bank account, I think it should be transparent. If there are fees from the broker to the personal account, I also think it should be transparent.
    I am not saying it can never be done, I am saying it has to be clear!



  3. #23
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    Oct. 18, 2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by FalseImpression View Post
    I am not saying it can never be done, I am saying it has to be clear!
    Your post pretty much defines "arms length transaction".

    If the transaction is legitimate, it will stand up to scrutiny. If someone's super sniffer detects the odor of mendacity.......



  4. #24
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    Jul. 28, 2004
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    Central New York State
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    Quote Originally Posted by FalseImpression View Post
    I don't think I am missing the point. It could be stated that the rescue is paying such individual so much an hour for rescue work. It could be stated that there is a fixed amount on each transaction covering work of said person. I am sure that many people would agree to a legitimate amount for work done. When a rescuer also works outside the rescue and can support herself personally, there is no problem. When a rescue works full-time with the rescue and his/her spouse seems to always be available to help the rescue, I believe some questions need to be asked as to HOW they support their family, EAT and clothe themselves... If there is money going from the rescue to their personal bank account, I think it should be transparent. If there are fees from the broker to the personal account, I also think it should be transparent.
    I am not saying it can never be done, I am saying it has to be clear!
    Could you please be more clear as to exactly what rescue you're making reference to? A name please? Thanks.



  5. #25
    Join Date
    Feb. 15, 2004
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    In this instance, I am referring to AC4H, but this is certainly not the only rescue in the same situation. Anyone who deals full time with rescue has to be very clear as to how they support themselves. Is it somehow through the rescue? In that case, how? What are the donations going to?
    I have been burned before and I just do not donate anymore to this type of set up. However, with clear responses and clear guidelines, you never know.



  6. #26
    Join Date
    Feb. 7, 2008
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    On a peaceful horse farm
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    I would think you would get your answers if you looked up their 990's. They're there for the public to view.
    The horse I bet on was so slow, the jockey kept a diary of the trip.
    Henny Youngman



  7. #27
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    Apr. 7, 2005
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    summerville GA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Aria View Post
    I would think you would get your answers if you looked up their 990's. They're there for the public to view.
    And mine is proudly there LOL. JSwan, what a great suggestion. I would LOFF a subscription to Chronicles, I love that magazine but just never can afford to put out 54 dollars or so for a subscription. I do subscribe to The Horse for 10 a year cause it is filled with advice on aging horses all the time. Its not a story book, its a medical marvel.


    The only person ever paid here at Sunkissed was a young girl who had to come each evening to turn out the old folks in the summer and bring them in in the winter. I paid for her out of my wages. I have always kept a job outside of the farm but second to the farm. Yes, I have to eat and pay for the farm I house the rescues on. I worked nights at the mill, I worked nights doing foal watch. I sell hay in the summer, bushhog and disc fields for people. I spray and fertilize fields and build fences and barns. This also employs my foster kids for summer time work. I have found that self employment is my best bet because then I can give the time to the farm that is needed. It is full time.

    And yes, I get paid for keeping the foster kids. But, it supports them, it is not a living.

    I can only dream of the day that maybe Sunkissed can pay me a little salary so that maybe I dont have to work quite so hard.

    Not complaining, this is my dream and it is worth working for.
    Our horses are not seen as the old and disabled they may have become, but rather as the mighty steeds they once believed themselves to be.

    Sunkissed Acres Rescue and Retirement



  8. #28
    Join Date
    May. 24, 2005
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    Winter Park, Florida
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    Quote Originally Posted by EqTrainer View Post
    Not related to the recent threads - but I have always wondered - how can anyone run a rescue full time and not get paid? Ummmm.. what are they supposed to eat? Donated leather?
    Well, in my case, I went back to work! I work a full time job. I am at the barn from 6-8 am and then back after 6pm during the week, and pretty much all day on the weekends.
    I WISH I were paid a salary for the rescue, I wouldn't have to work otherwise! And of course, our BOD's are not paid..but then, after the year Calvin has had, he could pay me!



  9. #29
    Join Date
    Mar. 16, 2008
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    89

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    Quote Originally Posted by FalseImpression View Post
    In this instance, I am referring to AC4H, but this is certainly not the only rescue in the same situation. Anyone who deals full time with rescue has to be very clear as to how they support themselves. Is it somehow through the rescue? In that case, how? What are the donations going to?
    I have been burned before and I just do not donate anymore to this type of set up. However, with clear responses and clear guidelines, you never know.
    I looked up their financials and was especially pleased to have read that they had theirs audited professionally. I have not seen their personal taxes but that is not required as far as I know. I have been around a long time, and have yet to ask rescue people what exactly they do for a living besides running a rescue. I have never known Christy to avoid answering any questions, so why don't you just write to her and ask her?



  10. #30
    Join Date
    Jul. 28, 2004
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    Central New York State
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    Quote Originally Posted by FalseImpression View Post
    In this instance, I am referring to AC4H, but this is certainly not the only rescue in the same situation. Anyone who deals full time with rescue has to be very clear as to how they support themselves. Is it somehow through the rescue? In that case, how? What are the donations going to?
    I have been burned before and I just do not donate anymore to this type of set up. However, with clear responses and clear guidelines, you never know.
    FalseImpressions- May I ask you if you've ever been to AC4H in person? Have you ever met Christy personally? Ever seen her home and property, the vehicle she drives or the horse trailer she uses? Thank you.



  11. #31
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    Apr. 15, 2008
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    (dunno if the thread has been overtaken as it were, but DEFHR has all their docs on their site: http://www.defhr.org/farm/financials.htm )



  12. #32
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    Dec. 4, 2002
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    Dungeon of the Ivory Tower
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    Also - if I remember correctly, and we're not yet at this point, so please forgive me if I'm wrong, we're still learning! - if you raise less than $10,000 in monetary donations yearly, you are not required to file a 990. Doesn't mean you shouldn't anyway.
    Last edited by DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"; Aug. 11, 2009 at 06:49 PM.
    www.specialhorses.org
    a 501(c)3 organization helping 501(c)3 equine rescues




  13. #33
    Join Date
    Jan. 31, 2003
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    18,472

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    I am sorry but I think the idea that anyone has some sort of obligation to prove/show how they make their living because they also run a rescue is really messed up. A NPO is obligated to make certain records public and that is that.
    "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
    ---
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.



  14. #34
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    Mar. 16, 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by EqTrainer View Post
    I am sorry but I think the idea that anyone has some sort of obligation to prove/show how they make their living because they also run a rescue is really messed up. A NPO is obligated to make certain records public and that is that.
    Wisely spoken. Thank you



  15. #35
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    Feb. 15, 2004
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    Ontario
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marli View Post
    FalseImpressions- May I ask you if you've ever been to AC4H in person? Have you ever met Christy personally? Ever seen her home and property, the vehicle she drives or the horse trailer she uses? Thank you.
    Sheesh, nice way of replying... this kind of reply is just what I don't like... putting the person asking down...as if... you know where I live Marli. You called me once remember!!! How could I/would I visit?

    I am very willing to accept that everything is above the board with this rescue. It does not mean it is with all rescues and if I specified this rescue, it is because of the previous discussion. Still, replying like this does not necessarily make me feel confident.

    I guess I should say that it does not matter. I will never donate anything to a AC4H, if only because of the too close relationship with the dealer. There used to be a time when AC4H went regularly to NH. It does not seem to be happening as regularly.

    I do agree they don't necessarily have to say where their personal finances come from. Again, this close association with a dealer makes me uncomfortable. So yes, my choice... and I have made it.



  16. #36
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    Nov. 23, 1999
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    20,609

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    Paid employees? Absolutely. Paying the directors? Absolutely not. Reimbursing for out-of-pocket necessary expenses is fine, but otherwise - and JMHO of course - being a director is one of your donations to the nonprofit.



  17. #37
    Join Date
    Nov. 15, 2005
    Location
    NY
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    It's great to say 'look at the 990', but those of us who saw CBER get given and donated items that they used to improve the Presidents personal property, or were supposed to be sold to raise funds but were not... I'm here to tell you the 990 doesn't tell you everything.

    Then there was the fantastic e-mail from Sam bemoaning how, after paying all her bills and those of the rescue [note they were part and parcel] she ONLY had $800 a month left over. Meanwhile there are people on ABR eating ramen to send them thousands to bail horses off that broker lot. Week. After week. After week.

    So whether or not they say they don't get paid, or their 990 says so.... doesn't necessarily mean diddly. Go. SEE. With your own eyes. Ask questions and expect answers, and if there are more than a few people asking, I see absolutely no reason that the question and then the answer should be privately conveyed. None.

    If you spend enough time with someone their true character will show- the VP of CBER once told me, of a horse who shipped to slaughter 'well he wasn't nice anyway'. Nuff said.



  18. #38
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    Jul. 28, 2004
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    Central New York State
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    Quote Originally Posted by FalseImpression View Post
    Sheesh, nice way of replying... this kind of reply is just what I don't like... putting the person asking down...as if... you know where I live Marli. You called me once remember!!! How could I/would I visit?

    I am very willing to accept that everything is above the board with this rescue. It does not mean it is with all rescues and if I specified this rescue, it is because of the previous discussion. Still, replying like this does not necessarily make me feel confident.

    I guess I should say that it does not matter. I will never donate anything to a AC4H, if only because of the too close relationship with the dealer. There used to be a time when AC4H went regularly to NH. It does not seem to be happening as regularly.

    I do agree they don't necessarily have to say where their personal finances come from. Again, this close association with a dealer makes me uncomfortable. So yes, my choice... and I have made it.
    My questions were in no way meant as a 'put down', sorry you interpreted it to imply in that manner. I asked them in all seriousness after your comments speculating there might be some mis-appropriations on the part of AC4H as a rescue and the personal lifestyle of it's director.

    Anyone that knows me, whether in person, by email or by phone, knows pretty well that I'm not seeking to score any brownie points or anyones confidence- I'm a bottom line kind of person- cut to the chase. This world is made up of all kinds of personalities all with their own system of beliefs and opinions and when direct questions get asked (you did ask questions directly to me- there were question marks (?) behind your statements)-

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by FalseImpression
    In this instance, I am referring to AC4H, but this is certainly not the only rescue in the same situation. Anyone who deals full time with rescue has to be very clear as to how they support themselves. Is it somehow through the rescue? In that case, how? What are the donations going to?
    I have been burned before and I just do not donate anymore to this type of set up. However, with clear responses and clear guidelines, you never know.


    I'll respond. In this case, a response asking you serious questions as I was trying to gauge what basis they were gleaned from. Everyone is perfectly free to choose where and how support is shown and quite frankly, the responses given by a few others if you have such an interest were good responses- this rescues 990's are available for public viewing.

    I speak to many, many people- have done so for many years and while I won't deny ever speaking with you I will only say that I have no remembrance of any conversation via phone- guess it didn't leave an impression.



  19. #39
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    Feb. 23, 2007
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    in a fema camp under a chemtrail
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    So, is your post about CBER or AC4H? And as for your last statement:

    "If you spend enough time with someone their true character will show- the VP of CBER once told me, of a horse who shipped to slaughter 'well he wasn't nice anyway'. Nuff said."

    Personally and professionally speaking, it's important to have the ability to separate bad experiences from the past with those of the present, so that they do not obscure your vision. To not do so interferes with one's ability to be objective.
    "The slogan will take you like lemmings to the cliff. You'll feel better than ever, and into the abyss... There'll be no more war, there'll be no more choice." PiL



  20. #40
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    Mar. 16, 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    It's great to say 'look at the 990', but those of us who saw CBER get given and donated items that they used to improve the Presidents personal property, or were supposed to be sold to raise funds but were not... I'm here to tell you the 990 doesn't tell you everything.

    Then there was the fantastic e-mail from Sam bemoaning how, after paying all her bills and those of the rescue [note they were part and parcel] she ONLY had $800 a month left over. Meanwhile there are people on ABR eating ramen to send them thousands to bail horses off that broker lot. Week. After week. After week.

    So whether or not they say they don't get paid, or their 990 says so.... doesn't necessarily mean diddly. Go. SEE. With your own eyes. Ask questions and expect answers, and if there are more than a few people asking, I see absolutely no reason that the question and then the answer should be privately conveyed. None.

    If you spend enough time with someone their true character will show- the VP of CBER once told me, of a horse who shipped to slaughter 'well he wasn't nice anyway'. Nuff said.
    Yep that was CBER. For the record I have seen AC4H with my own eyes, several times. Nothing to hide and transparent what these people do for the lives of many horses. They have volunteers and guests there almost every weekend. Their house is far from fancy but clean and welcoming. Their vehicles are old. Their horse trailer is let's categorize it as functional; no frills transportation for some mighty lucky horses whether it be from New Holland, neglect and abuse situations in the area and bordering counties or broker horses, who by no fault of their own have no choice as to their futures. Yep, I have been there and seen it.



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