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  1. #1
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    Default Vineyridge? TB pedigree help?

    Viney,

    Can you analyze this TB pedigree?

    Of course, anyone else can jump in too!

    http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=kay+lorre
    Holly
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  2. #2
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    I can't tell you the first thing about TB pedigrees but I would love to see her grey Weltmeyer foal!!
    There are stars in the Southern sky and if ever you decide you should go there is a taste of time sweetened honey.



  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by eyesontheground View Post
    I can't tell you the first thing about TB pedigrees but I would love to see her grey Weltmeyer foal!!

    She had several as well as a Sir Caletto that was a recent jumper champion.
    Holly
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  4. #4
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    BUMP.

    Viney, are you out there???
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  5. #5
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    Okay.

    First of all, she is from one of the finest TB broodmare families out there--she is tail female to Pretty Polly, who was a terrific race mare but more importantly founded her own branch of FF14--14-c. She had many daughters, and most of them were also terrific broodmares, who were able to pass on high quality to their descendants. So right off, Kay Lorre got a huge plus when it comes to the breeding side of things.

    On the sire side, the Caro/Fortino/Grey Sovereign/Nasrullah/Nearco line is close to TB sport horse royalty. Each of the mares in that line also came from great sport lines. Ranavalo is a daughter of Relic (Man O'War/Matchem line), and he is a line that has many representatives in WB World as damsire. Navarra II looks to me as if she might have been bred by Frederick Tesio, the breeder of Nearco and Ribot, among many others. At any rate, her tail female granddam is Nogara, dam of Nearco and Niccolo Dell'archa, both of whom are among the great TB sires in sport as well as on the track.

    Chambord is out of a Precipitation (Matchem line) mare, and he was the sire of Furioso. You have a double to him in the sixth generation through his daughter Participation. Snowberry was a daughter of Myrobella, also one of the great broodmares. Myrobella is sireline to The Tetrarch, who represents a very famous TB jumping family--The French Grays. Bonne Nuit was a tail male scion of that family.

    Solario was the damsire of Royal Charger, was the son of Gainsborough, son of Bayardo, and his damsire was Sundridge. All those lines have been proved over time to be extremely athletic and to make more than decent TB sport horses. Lady of the Snows was tail female to Black Duchess (Bay Ronald's dam) through Black Cherry. That family has pretty consistently been good for jumping, as witness Blandford's descendants. Blandford was by a daughter of Black Cherry--Blanche. The Black Duchess/Black Cherry line has also been a super broodmare line in the past. I'm not certain how active it is today tail female, though--especially not in the United States. Santa Claus who has had descendants in International level show jumping is descended from Black Cherry in tail female.

    Next down you have another line to Nasrullah through Fleet Nasrullah. All Nasrullahs are promising, and Fleet Nasrullah was responsible for a couple of horses in Dr. Birdsall--Icy Paws and Silver Exchange, but by now there are many more who have him in their pedigrees. His dam, Happy Go Fleet, is by Count Fleet (International level GP producer in the Pedigrees of 21 horses in Dr. Birdsall, including 20th Century and Sandsablaze). Draeh was a very nice broodmare who is in the pedigrees of six horses in Dr. Birdsall. She is by Bull Dog (jumping sire by Teddy) out of Miss Bunting (FF23-b, which goes back in the United States to Galopade, and is the FF of Affirmed, among many other very high quality and athletic horses. Tim Tam, who shows up in this pedigree is also FF23-b.)

    I personally love Tim Tam. He won the first two legs of the Triple Crown, then limped home second in the Belmont on a cracked Sesamoid. To me he exemplifies everything that is special about Thoroughbreds. He is Tom Fool out of Two Lea. Two Lea was a daughter of Bull Lea, maybe the best TB line to find in American jumping horses, and one of the great TB broodmares of her time. Tom Fool was the sire of Buckpasser, and is also one of the lines that has been very productive in high class eventing.

    Fleet Courage's tail female line is pretty special, also. She was the dam of a couple of really nice race horses, and was bred to some of the best sires of her time. Tim Tam was a better than average broodmare sire, and Spartan Woman is out of a quite wonderful mare named Iron Maiden who was out of a quite wonderful mare named Betty Derr. Iron Maiden is in the pedigrees of four horses in Dr. Birdsall, including the ill fated show hunter, Henry The Hawk. She was also the tail female granddam of the great race horse Swaps, through her daughter Iron Reward. Iron Maiden had a half sister named Judy Rae, who was also a rather wonderful broodmare. She was the dam of a mare named Tulle (by War Admiral, so a 3/4 sibling to Iron Maiden) who was the dam of Courtly Dee, who was the dam of 19 foals, including the great mare Althea and Press Card by Fappiano, who is well liked by eventing people. Another good mare from Judy Rae was Judy Rullah. FFA-4, but this is by far the best branch of that family.

    Bottom side: Less impressive to me. RAN on the topside through a son who is fairly undistinguished and got shipped to South America. RAN has a jump and has proved it, but he also is often indicted in TB fragility. You have a touch of linebreeding to Selene through Polynesian, ggrandson of Selene, and Heliopolis, grandson of Selene through Hyperion. Geisha is a daughter of Discovery, as was Miss Disco, Bold Ruler's dam, and My Recipe, dam of Intentionally. He is by Fair Play, Man O'War's sire. Then you have Raise You. She's a granddaughter of Teddy, and her damsire, American Flag is rather nice for sport, being in seven pedigrees in Dr. Birdsall.

    Francis S is a son of Royal Charger who was a 3/4 sibling to Nasrullah, and also got Turn-To, which gets you into the "not family" of Best Turn and Hail To Reason. Best Turn gets you Hand in Glove. Blue Eyed Momo is War Admiral out of a La Troienne mare. War Admiral is, therefore, top and bottom. Francis S. seems to have been an okay sire--better as a broodmare sire. He hasn't made nearly as big a sport horse splash as the Turn-To's.

    Neutron is a lovely mare on paper. By Hyperion (Bay Ronald line) out of a Precipitation mare who was tail female to Pretty Polly. There is NOTHING in her pedigree not to like for sport.

    Far as I can tell, Riverstream didn't do much and didn't produce much either. Riva Ridge, on the other hand, has some very nice sport horse ancestors. First Landing is Turn-To, which gets you Source Sucree and Lavendula (my favorite broodmare for sport ever), and Hildene was one of the really great broodmares. One factoid about her is that she was blind for most of her life, as was her sire.

    Iberia was by Heliopolis, who is in the pedigrees of many horses in Dr. Birdsall--19 to be exact. He was Jet Run's damsire. War East was a combination of the Man O'War lines and the very good jumping horse sire, Easton. Easton is found in the pedigrees of some of the Night Lark family, along with about six others. Crimea II is a daughter of Princequillo, who needs nothing else said about him. One of the great sire lines, recognized both here and in Europe.

    Victoria Cross's sire, Court Martial, was a lovely blending of the Phalaris line through Fair Way, the Son-In-Law and Lady Josephine lines through Lady Juror, the Hurry On line through Instantaneous, and the Bay Ronald/Bayardo line through Gainsborough. Lady Josephine was the also dam of Mumtaz Mahal, who might have been the greatest broodmare of the twentieth century. Mumtaz Mahal was a daughter of The Tetrarch, and granddam of many of the horses that we think of as being excellent for sport--like Mahmoud, Nasrullah, Royal Charger, and so many others through her daughters that it's hard to list all of them. So you've got line breeding up the wazoo to Lady Josephine. Court Martial is an accepted line in WB breeding, and a good line to find in event horses.

    Hurry On was Precipitation's sire.

    Forgot to mention that Bull Lea was out of a mare named Rose Leaves, who is in the pedigrees of a huge number of really great sport horses. Not only was she the dam of Bull Lea (43 horses in Dr. Birdsall), she was also the dam of Espino and Bois de Rose. Espino is the grandsire of Mary Mairs Chapot's International jumper and broodmare, Tomboy (JC Jane's Bit) through his son Wait A Bit, and has nine other hunters/jumpers to his credit in Dr. Birdsall. Bois de Rose was the sire of Cormac, who won the Maryland Hunt Cup and sired the Olympic Gold Medal winning mare, Ballycor. Cormac lines are gold for event horses still. The Maryland Hunt Cup is a timber race over 4 miles and 23 or so, 5 foot tall, solid timber fences.
    Last edited by vineyridge; Jul. 30, 2009 at 10:04 PM.
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  6. #6
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    Yup ... have to give another HUGE shoutout to Tim Tam. What a wonderful racehorse and underappreciated sire. Ditto for Riva Ridge. Also adore Brushup in any pedigree.

    Sad fact: Your mare is closely connected to a very dark chapter of California racing -- and just plain horse -- history.

    Iron Maiden (see Iron Courage's bottom-line great-granddam) was the dam of Kentucky Derby winner Iron Liege and the much-less successful race mare Iron Reward. Who was Iron Reward? Only the dam of the GREAT Swaps and other good stakes-winning runners and who was named Broodmare of the Year in 1955.

    Why sad? Because Iron Reward was among the many horses that died of starvation on that ba$tard millionaire Rex Ellsworth's ranch in Chino, CA many, many years ago. She was 29 years old.

    Shooting Ellsworth would have been far too good for him, and yet, California racing still holds a fond place for him. I spit upon them all for that reason alone. He should have never, ever been allowed to keep his license or set foot on a track again, and yet he was.

    Please give your mare a hug for me. Somewhere in her DNA is that of a wondrous mare who deserved far, far better than what she got.
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