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  1. #1
    lootsie Guest

    Default Bad knees

    I am looking at a horse to buy for my daughter. She is now doing 3' and wants to move up to 3'6". She has been doing hunters and eq, mostly interested in eq, and wants to start doing some jumpers. The horse we are looking at can do 3'6", and is in our price range, and seems like a good match for my daughter. One problem--he doesn't pick up his knees when he jumps. He tends to jump with his forarms pointed down, and it is worse when he gets a deep distance. It doesn't seem to be a safety issue--he has a lot of scope and clears the jump fine. I am wondering if this is going to count against my daughter in the eq classes. I know he doesn't have a chance in the hunter ring, and it will only count against him if he knocks rails in the jumper ring, but what about eq?
    Any insight would be appreciated.



  2. #2
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    May. 12, 2008
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    Default

    The horse's form *shouldn't* count against him in the Eq ring, because it is judged on the rider. That being said, a judge may comment that the rider should have ridden better to get him to pick his knees up and/or may just pin someone above her because their horse 'looks nicer'.

    I have had it happen before where I am on a fairly green horse and the judge told me I was obviously the better rider and I looked better, but the other horse gave the rider an easier ride, so he won out.



  3. #3
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    Default

    Forearms pointed down? Or just not hiked to his ears? Forearms that point down is generally considered being a dangerous jumping form, no matter how much scope horse might have.

    I'm thinking we might not be on the same page of "forearms pointed down" though.



  4. #4
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    Default

    At top levels, it's going to influence the overall picture the judge has and it will be hard for DD to make it look as smooth and easy as the top horses do. And don't count on those rails staying up. He may have the scope to overjump to clear but if he gets tired? If the rails do come down it CAN count off...up to the judge.

    Be honest, it's a fault I don't care for in any ring. Mind you, they don't have to wrap their knees around their ears but they do need to not rotate over their front end and overjump because they can't pick them up physically.

    Seems to me that, depending on degree, if he has to jump up more to get over, that might lead to problems in forward combinations and leave DD short and dead in the water. And it will never look as good as one that does not and not showcase your DD.

    Most of these are fine at 3' but when the fences go up and out in width, the flaws really show up.

    I think you can do better.
    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.



  5. #5
    lootsie Guest

    Default

    I will try to post a link to some videos of my daughter riding this horse. It is only the second time she has ridden him, and she does get him to some deep spots where the fault is more obvious, but it seems to be is jumping style overall. I don't know if it will improve with fitness/work/gymnastics, but the horse is 12 so he may be set in his ways.

    I will post video link when my daughter gets home with camera.

    Thanks for the replies.



  6. #6
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    Jul. 30, 2008
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    Default

    If his knees are pointed down it's a dangerous form fault and may prevent your daughter from pinning against a rider whose horse doesn't have that fault. Plus the fact that if put it a sticky situation, his legs could cause them to flip. I would try him over some gymnastics and pole work in front of/behind the jumps and see if his form improves. If he starts to tuck his knees up higher, and continues to do so over normal jumps, he can probably be tuned up to have a better jumping form.



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug. 21, 2007
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    Default

    Just because a horse can jump a 3'6 course doesn't mean it should. A horse that jumps like what you described as "forearms pointed down" probably shouldn't be jumping at this level. To be quite frank about it, this is a safety issue. If the horse indeed does not "pick up it's legs" the horse is likely to leave a leg on the ground or the like and have a disastrous ride. This obviously is not what you want in a 3'6 equitation horse.
    Another consideration is..will this horse stay sound? Probably not. Maintenance is key. Form equals function. The horse is jumping this way for a reason..
    As well, I am not sure at what level you plan to compete said horse at but..the entire picture does count, no matter how hard you try and tell yourself it doesn't. The judge does notice how your daughter and horse look together For your daughter to ride effectively and correctly, it would be important for the horse to do so as well. I would say keep looking.



  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by lootsie View Post
    He tends to jump with his forarms pointed down, and it is worse when he gets a deep distance.
    I agree with what has already been stated here and would like to add that, for an eq horse, you want one that will be able to help hide small errors by the rider. This horse's form is going to highlight every time your DD does not get a great distance which will count against her.

    This really does not sound like a horse that should be competeing over fences, especially fences that are 3' and above.
    Auventera Two:Some women would eat their own offspring if they had some dipping sauce.



  9. #9

    Default

    Yuck. You can say all you want that it doesn't affect his safety around a jump but it does. Good form comes from good function and jumping with tight, square knees and hocks is not just a fashion someone invented.



  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by lootsie View Post
    ...but it seems to be is jumping style overall. I don't know if it will improve with fitness/work/gymnastics, but the horse is 12 so he may be set in his ways.
    I will post video link when my daughter gets home with camera.

    Well, I dunno about being set in his ways...more likely he lacks the conformation to lift his forearm level with the ground or near to that. I don't think any horse sets out to overjump because it's what they want, it's just the only way they can physically get over. No tune up will fix a straight shoulder that blocks the forearm from a full range of motion.

    But by all means, post the video and we can take a look see. Like with most things, matter of degree and what you can live with.
    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.



  11. #11
    lootsie Guest



  12. #12
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    I only really noticed his form over the tight jumps, but given that none of those jumps were 3'6, I think it's hard to judge how he'd do as a big eq horse. When he got tight to a jump, his form was pretty terrible, and that will count against your daughter in the eq. Even if it's not a large amount being deducted, it's enough to slip her below a horse that can cover those mistakes. He highlights them.



  13. #13
    lootsie Guest

    Default

    The jumps are not 3'6" obviously--we watched him jump that high and he jumped about the same. And in my original post I may have made it sound like his knees pointed straight down to the ground--not the case--they are just angled down (sometimes more angled than others). Yes my DD did get him deep several times, and his low knees were much more obvious then, but they still seemed to me to hang a little even when the distance is good? Or maybe not? Any more opinions after seeing the video?



  14. #14
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    This hrose is not the tightest jumper I have seen, he is also not the worst. What struck me was that he is CRAWLING along. Not that a horse should fly to fences, but he was adding strides and getting terribly close because he was not being given any incentive from the rider to create impulsion. I feel the horse has a better jump in him if he carried a bit mroe pace and impulsion. The rider seems to think SLOW means COLLECTED but the two are no synonomous. When he met the fence on a mroe open stride he jumped better, particularly the oxers. I would want to see this horse jump with a bit more energy and impulsion to really make a more informed decision, but he is never going to be a horse that cracks his knees and back (of course you don't want one that REALLY jumps hard for an EQ horse).



  15. #15
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    Aug. 9, 2008
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    I think that if you are buying a 3'6" horse then it should be able to jump well over tighter distances. If you watch the top big eq riders show they do sometimes get a little tight but their horses can jump well enough to help cover up the distance. So if I were buying a big eq horse I would want one that could help cover up the tight ones. But this horse makes the tight distances even worse because he jumps so poorly over tight distances.



  16. #16
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    I would agree with the lack of impulsion. And he does tend to drop his knees and jump over his shoulder at the small spots. I don't NECESSARILY think he's dangerous, but there is potential there. And I say this as someone who owns a horse that jumps like that all the time, if perhaps a little worse. Mine is, however, super careful, but that you'd only discover with time. But as someone who owns a horse that jumps similarly, I will say that that kind of jump can be much harder to equitate. I would not consider it a soundness issue at all. My guy is 20 and still happily cruising around anywhere between 2'9 and 3'3", depending on the day.

    I would perhaps see if she can get him to move forward, and maybe get him deep to some wide oxers, and see if that gets his front end a little snappier off the ground.
    You know, if you took this jello, put it in a mold and froze it, you could be like look....an emerald. Dude, I'd kick some guys ass he ever tried to give me a jello ring.



  17. #17
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jumper6252 View Post
    I think that if you are buying a 3'6" horse then it should be able to jump well over tighter distances. If you watch the top big eq riders show they do sometimes get a little tight but their horses can jump well enough to help cover up the distance. So if I were buying a big eq horse I would want one that could help cover up the tight ones. But this horse makes the tight distances even worse because he jumps so poorly over tight distances.
    I agree - this does not look like a horse that is going to show your daughter off in the Eq. ring, particularly compared to what the competition will be riding. I also personally want one that can handle the tight distance better than this one does, both from an aesthetics point of view as well as for safety. It is a very noticeable part of his jumping form, and it would detract from the overall picture IMO. That of course wouldn't matter for the jumper ring if he can get around clean and quick, but could matter in the Eq. ring.



  18. #18
    lootsie Guest

    Default

    Thanks for the input. I guess his jump in not as bad as I thought as long as he gets a good distance, but you are right--there are always going to be some deep spots (hopefully not as many ), and he really highlights the mistake. We are on a very limited budget, so we are going to have to compromise somewhere, but I don't know if this is something worth compromising on.

    I understand what you are saying about impulsion, but we watched another rider ride him, and while he didn't have the deep spots and the really hanging knees, his knees still did not really snap up, and looked about the same as when DD was riding him and the distance wasn't deep. It seems like the consensus is that when the distance is good his front end is acceptable but not great.

    Any other opinions?

    Or anyone know of a horse available that has potential for 3'6", and is doing at least 3' right now, can do the eq, is under or around 15K, and in the northeast.



  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by lootsie View Post
    Thanks for the input. I guess his jump in not as bad as I thought as long as he gets a good distance, but you are right--there are always going to be some deep spots (hopefully not as many ), and he really highlights the mistake. We are on a very limited budget, so we are going to have to compromise somewhere, but I don't know if this is something worth compromising on.

    I understand what you are saying about impulsion, but we watched another rider ride him, and while he didn't have the deep spots and the really hanging knees, his knees still did not really snap up, and looked about the same as when DD was riding him and the distance wasn't deep. It seems like the consensus is that when the distance is good his front end is acceptable but not great.

    Any other opinions?

    Or anyone know of a horse available that has potential for 3'6", and is doing at least 3' right now, can do the eq, is under or around 15K, and in the northeast.
    THat is a tight budget for waht you want. If that is what you are looking to spend, then personally, I think this horse is worth that. Hwoever, your daughter will REALLY have to learn to ride him to the right spot 90% of the time. If you want a snappy jumper with good form that can do the 3'6", and have the education an EQ horse needs, be prepared to spend a lot more!



  20. #20
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    Or anyone know of a horse available that has potential for 3'6", and is doing at least 3' right now, can do the eq, is under or around 15K, and in the northeast.
    Unfortunately, that's fairly unlikely, unless you're willing to take something that's either green or has issues. Most horses that have the potential to do 3'6" SAFELY, the flatwork training to handle the eq, and the tolerance to take a just moving up junior around her first year at 3'6", quite frankly, cost a lot, because there aren't a lot of them.

    I'd say it'd be harder to find something that's successfully competing the 3'+ right now than it would be to find something with the potential to do so, though.



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