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  1. #1

    Default Semen (Fresh, Chilled, Frozen) standards as defined by WBFSH

    Good to know there are standards out there. I'll be more cautious about checking post thaw mobility numbers per dose now!


    http://www.wbfsh.com/GB/Other%20acti...standards.aspx


    http://www.wbfsh.com/files/Semen%20standards.pdf
    Last edited by back in the saddle; Feb. 12, 2012 at 01:00 PM.



  2. #2

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by back in the saddle View Post
    Good to know there are standards out there. I'll be more cautious about checking post thaw mobility numbers per dose now!


    http://www.wbfsh.com/GB/Other%20acti...standards.aspx


    http://www.wbfsh.com/files/Semen%20standards.pdf
    For sure, any agent worth their salt will have those #s in their breeding contract- at least we used to:-).

    but the bottom line is, semen can be way weaker and still do the job, if the receiving vet is good.
    Just important to let the client know the semen is weak so they can make the c hoice to go ahead or not.

    And on the other hand, semen can be higher in numbers than 35% and not do the job. Post thaw% is not the same as % of risk.



  3. #3
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    Default

    but the bottom line is, semen can be way weaker and still do the job, if the receiving vet is good.
    Just important to let the client know the semen is weak so they can make the c hoice to go ahead or not.

    And on the other hand, semen can be higher in numbers than 35% and not do the job. Post thaw% is not the same as % of risk.
    Very true.

    I'd like to know I'm buying standard numbers. If I didn't get a pregnancy and then found out I got half the amount of swimmers per the standard as defined in the link above, I'd be HIGHLY upset - REGARDLESS of 'why' it didn't work.



  4. #4
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    Default

    The document says, re frozen semen:
    "mininimum of 250 millionss progressively motile spermatozoa per A.I. dose post-thawing
    - A breeding dose for insemination of one mare has to contain a minimum of 3 insemination
    doses.
    - free to sell a single insemination dose"

    How is this interpreted?
    Does it mean that for frozen, with a LFG, a minimum of 3 doses is standard for the contract?
    Dose it also mean a vendor is free to sell by the single dose, or that a purchaser of a LFG contract is free to sell a single dose?



  5. #5
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunnydays View Post
    The document says, re frozen semen:
    "mininimum of 250 millionss progressively motile spermatozoa per A.I. dose post-thawing
    - A breeding dose for insemination of one mare has to contain a minimum of 3 insemination
    doses.
    - free to sell a single insemination dose"

    How is this interpreted?
    Does it mean that for frozen, with a LFG, a minimum of 3 doses is standard for the contract?
    Dose it also mean a vendor is free to sell by the single dose, or that a purchaser of a LFG contract is free to sell a single dose?
    I found that part of the document rather puzzling, too. It generates more questions than answers in my mind.



  6. #6
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    Default

    I find this very interesting because some of the semen SHIPPED FROM Europe to the US is being sold without any information. I had emailed a large frozen semen broker here in the US and asked about the stats on the semen .....response was....it's very good and has resulted in pregnancies. Well that's nice but it isn't what I feel anyone selling frozen or fresh should be providing to mare owners especially with no LFG.
    Summit Sporthorses Ltd. Inc.
    "Breeding Competition Partners & Lifelong Friends"



  7. #7
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ise@ssl View Post
    I find this very interesting because some of the semen SHIPPED FROM Europe to the US is being sold without any information. I had emailed a large frozen semen broker here in the US and asked about the stats on the semen .....response was....it's very good and has resulted in pregnancies. Well that's nice but it isn't what I feel anyone selling frozen or fresh should be providing to mare owners especially with no LFG.
    Maybe we should start requiring this info? Is that possible?

    I didn't get this either: "A breeding dose for insemination of one mare has to contain a minimum of 3 insemination doses.
    - free to sell a single insemination dose"

    Anyone know?



  8. #8

    Default

    In Germany there are 3 insemination doses in a "breeding dose". One dose can also be sold as a "single insemination dose". Brokers in North America sell one dose at a time, with no LFG.

    Make sense I hope?



  9. #9
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by imajacres View Post
    In Germany there are 3 insemination doses in a "breeding dose". One dose can also be sold as a "single insemination dose". Brokers in North America sell one dose at a time, with no LFG.

    Make sense I hope?
    Yes. Thank you.



  10. #10
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    Wink

    I had emailed a large frozen semen broker here in the US and asked about the stats on the semen .....response was....it's very good and has resulted in pregnancies. Well that's nice but it isn't what I feel anyone selling frozen or fresh should be providing to mare owners especially with no LFG.

    Funny that you wrote that b/c I had exactly the same experience the other month when I was buying some frozen. I bought a dose of Hohenstein, that has a notoriously poor frozen history. However, they increased the breeding dose to double a year or so ago and now have some success. I was trying to find out the particulars regarding post thaw stats now that the breeding dose is 8 straws. No go...just the response of "now it is good, we have successful breedings, similar to any other frozen stallion semen". And I called two large frozen importers and got the same essential response.

    I decided to take the risk and bought a dose to try this spring! But I sure wish there was a way to get the real "stats". I couldn't even get how many successful pregnancies he had, just that there were some! I keep telling myself that is part of the fun...I know completely delusional!



  11. #11
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    Default

    It seems... odd that progressive motility percentage is still a factor at that stage. I would be much more concerned about the number of progressively motile sperm rather than percentage. If the stallion is only 25% PM, but has 1 billion per dose, for 250 million PM per dose, I would be a satisfied mare owner.



  12. #12
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bluehof View Post
    Funny that you wrote that b/c I had exactly the same experience the other month when I was buying some frozen. I bought a dose of Hohenstein, that has a notoriously poor frozen history. However, they increased the breeding dose to double a year or so ago and now have some success. I was trying to find out the particulars regarding post thaw stats now that the breeding dose is 8 straws. No go...just the response of "now it is good, we have successful breedings, similar to any other frozen stallion semen". And I called two large frozen importers and got the same essential response.

    I decided to take the risk and bought a dose to try this spring! But I sure wish there was a way to get the real "stats". I couldn't even get how many successful pregnancies he had, just that there were some! I keep telling myself that is part of the fun...I know completely delusional!
    I think if I was a frozen dealer, I wouldn't want to release "post thaw" stats either since I have no control over the handling of those doses once they leave my hands. Inevitably, some mare owner would find that THEIR dose is less than what I said, and they would be all over the Internet claiming that I cheated them.



  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by DownYonder View Post
    I think if I was a frozen dealer, I wouldn't want to release "post thaw" stats either since I have no control over the handling of those doses once they leave my hands. Inevitably, some mare owner would find that THEIR dose is less than what I said, and they would be all over the Internet claiming that I cheated them.

    For sure agree. It is info only the vets need, and even not really, because if they are at all connected, they can ask around their vet community and get the skinny on any stallion. The % means squat, people. it really does.
    All that matters is - are the mares getting in foal, and with how many doses of the semen in question.
    You can have nice semen, but rough extender, and the mares' inflammatory response will nix the semen. That part the importer wont know- only your mare will tell you, and then the experiences of vets that have used it can confirm or deny.

    I tell clients the %s when they ask, I just read it off the forms that come with the semen when it is imported, but really, it is not that important. More important is what I say afterwards- which is usually the lines of " X# mares pregnant on one breeding dose, X# on 2, etc"
    or sometimes I say- " unless you are good with high risk, or unless you have a great repro vet, dont use this guy" etc.

    Some people dont mind risk- I know I dont mind.

    And another thing, %s are often calculated by eye, under the scope. So your 50% progressive may be different than mine etc.
    Or my progressives and my twirly sperms dont add up to your's.
    Make sense?



  14. #14
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    Default

    Not really.

    I don't understand why people don't want some kind of quality control. YES, we ALL KNOW most of this freezing/thawing stuff can't be controlled by a human or the freeze process.

    All it is saying is make sure there is "X" amount of mobile semen after thaw. ONE of the very few things you can control in this and you guys don't want to. That makes no sense!

    How about this senario: New stallion is frozen with 250mil 35%mobility after thaw and is tested by a few mare owners; they all get pregnancies. You say.. self, I'm going to use that stallion because everyone who has used it got a foal. Unannounced to you, stallion owner says..... hmmmm everyone got pregancies, that means the semen must be really good. Next year, I'm going to reduce the sperm count per dose by half and increase my profits by distributing more straws of diluted semen to more mare owners. Suddenly the semen you thought was very good is reduced by half. (you guys say this is ok per the above)

    Had it been controlled, you to would have gotten what the original mare owners got. The only way to have quality control is to control the quality process.



  15. #15
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    Default

    I have to repeat -- post thaw motility does not have much to do with the success of frozen semen. Yes, of course, the semen needs to be moving, but it really means virtually nothing in terms of actually getting the mare pregnant.

    There is plenty of stallions who have great post thaw motility and don't get mares pregnant and vice versa.

    The question to ask (and always has been): "how many pregnancies has this stallion's frozen produced & how many cycles did it take?"

    And good luck getting THOSE answers. Hell, I had a frozen semen broker try to tell me Rubinstein I's semen was "good" because (in the last 10 yrs) there have been something like 3 pregnancies!

    Whereas Licosto (a young stallion I will be breeding via frozen to this year); I didn't even bother asking the broker any questions, because I've found it useless.

    Instead, I contacted #1) Jen Myers, where the stallion stands and where his semen has been frozen and asked them what sort of success they are getting with his frozen (great! was the response) and #2) contacted a vet Down Under (because their breeding season started last fall) and asked them. He responded that he had 10 clients use Licosto's frozen and all but one got FIRST CYCLE pregnancies with it. The last mare took 2 cycles. Now THAT is what I want to hear.

    I never even asked about motility and such, because it means virtually nothing.

    You have to understand that after a stallion is frozen, they check the motility under the scope...so unless they meet the "minimum", the won't even offer it to the public, because it's considered below the standard.

    But even if it meets or exceeds the standard, that has no bearing on if it will get mares pregnant. NONE.

    So getting those numbers won't really tell you if your mare will get pregnant. Getting other mares pregnant will tell you much more...



  16. #16
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    How about this senario: New stallion is frozen with 250mil 35%mobility after thaw and is tested by a few mare owners; they all get pregnancies. You say.. self, I'm going to use that stallion because everyone who has used it got a foal. Unannounced to you, stallion owner says..... hmmmm everyone got pregancies, that means the semen must be really good. Next year, I'm going to reduce the sperm count per dose by half and increase my profits by distributing more straws of diluted semen to more mare owners. Suddenly the semen you thought was very good is reduced by half.
    Well, yeah, but how many of the well known and reputable stallion stations/stallion owners are going to do something like that? They know word would get out pretty fast and would seriously damage their reputations. Furthermore, the SO would have to bring his repro vet/technicians in on the scam. I don't really think too many of them think in those terms.

    I think it is far more likely for MOs to try to scam the stallion owners by splitting doses, than it is for SOs to try to scam MOs by diluting straws.

    As for asking the dealer about the number of pregnancies - this is really hard for an importer to know. They often do not hear back from the MO and therefore do not know if the MO got a pregnancy or not. Add to it the fact that some breeders buy doses to keep in their own tanks, and it makes those kind of stats near impossible to keep track of.

    Imajacres also made a really good point that bears repeating - YOUR analysis of thawed semen under the scope may come up with a very different percentage than what the SO's vet got, esp. if he/she used CASA when the stallion was frozen and tested.

    And I have to agree with a comment made elsewhere - my sense is that the WBFSH standards were developed more as guidelines to aid SOs, and not so much as "weapons" the MOs can hold over an SO's or importer's head.



  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by back in the saddle View Post
    Not really.

    I don't understand why people don't want some kind of quality control. YES, we ALL KNOW most of this freezing/thawing stuff can't be controlled by a human or the freeze process.

    All it is saying is make sure there is "X" amount of mobile semen after thaw. ONE of the very few things you can control in this and you guys don't want to. That makes no sense!

    How about this senario: New stallion is frozen with 250mil 35%mobility after thaw and is tested by a few mare owners; they all get pregnancies. You say.. self, I'm going to use that stallion because everyone who has used it got a foal. Unannounced to you, stallion owner says..... hmmmm everyone got pregancies, that means the semen must be really good. Next year, I'm going to reduce the sperm count per dose by half and increase my profits by distributing more straws of diluted semen to more mare owners. Suddenly the semen you thought was very good is reduced by half. (you guys say this is ok per the above)

    Had it been controlled, you to would have gotten what the original mare owners got. The only way to have quality control is to control the quality process.


    Na, there IS control. That is the whole point. There is an industry standard, as you have found out. :-).
    it's been done, it IS done, and after that, it really doesnt matter because again, pregancies are all that counts. You can have really high counts, and YET not get mares in foal.
    Unless you are buying semen from "joe jack ass", (who wont be advertised over the pond anyway since the horse will need to go through the whole quarantine thing in Europe to make him export compliant= $$$) you can rest pretty assured they #s fall in what you read.
    The freezing vets dont know or care about the vet owner's profits, they are not going to freeze semen that is not in the norm. These are big, reputable clinics, not a "ma an' pa" freezing store.

    If you worry, pick a stallion, ask on BB's, ask the stallion owner, and maybe, JUST maybe, make your vet work for a living, and find out who has used it, and how it went. Because AGAIN- that is all you care about- the final result.

    To take a final example. I like a certain stallion. I know the semen was um, iffy, 8 or so years ago. I contact the stallion owner who tells me "we dont even freeze him anymore, it is so weak".
    Thank you and move on, or find old semen.

    That is the point; European stallion owners dont want unhappy clients in Europe, and we get the benefit of that.
    Benefit, because we dont really make a dent in the number of doses sold, but the stats/results are there for us to use.

    Maybe what would make you feel better is to find agents that actually have the semen in stock. I know I dont carry any guys that dont get VG results, because dont forget, I have to buy the semen upfront, so why would I want it sitting around, being no good, having cost me good money, with not much hope of good results, angry clients, no repeat sales, you get the drift. (man that was a long sentence, sorry english profs out there)

    And yes, in answer your your other post on another thread, if your vet is really good, he/she doesnt need full doses. But they may make you sign something in effect that you accept the added risk.



  18. #18
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    Default

    Yes that is obvious.

    Would you rather start with 200 mil sperm with 30% mobility after thaw

    OR

    250 mobile sperm after thaw (regardless of how many it started with)

    (You don't know if it will work or not due to 'the other factors)

    That's ALL it is saying. No more no less.



  19. #19
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    Default

    I was not going to post but it's been nagging at me since this thread was started, so...

    THIS is why we use Select Breeders for our collections. SBS has the staff, facility and equipment to eliminate human error/guestimates as to motility. They will recommend NOT freezing stallions who do not meet the industry minimums consistently. And if a stallion's fresh is not up to par, they tell you that as well - whether it be concentration, longevity, motility or morphology. Every new collection can be vastly different than the previous ones, so it makes no sense to set anyone (yourself, the stallion, the mare or the mareowner) up for a failed attempt to 'wing it' on your own. They eliminate much of the 'risk' of what can go wrong with a collection or shipment and have detailed history on each of the stallions.



  20. #20
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by back in the saddle View Post
    Yes that is obvious.

    Would you rather start with 200 mil sperm with 30% mobility after thaw

    OR

    250 mobile sperm after thaw (regardless of how many it started with)

    (You don't know if it will work or not due to 'the other factors)

    That's ALL it is saying. No more no less.
    Again, what people are saying is that this doesn't matter AT ALL. PLENTY of mares can get pregnant with 30% (or even less, and I've seen it happen) and there are plenty of stallions with 85% or higher than can't get a pregnancy. I went through 3 cycles with a stallion whose semen was 70% post thaw each time, the mare was fine, the timing was perfect...and never got a pregnancy.

    Why do you think you have these stallions like Bretton Woods, Rubinstein I, Hohenstein, etc.? When they were frozen, their post thaw motility looked great -- THAT is why the frozen was offered to the market in the first place (no self respecting SO OR vet would offer semen below the standard knowingly).

    But (apparently) the used paying MO as guinea pigs to see if the stuff actually worked...and it didn't.

    Take home message: don't be the first guy in line to try frozen from a new stallion....and I don't care if he has 100% forward motility. That doesn't mean the juice will do the job!

    Yes, there are standards. But, as others have stated, #1,to get the same post thaw % as the original vet did, you need to use the same process (heated slide, make sure it's fully thawed, counted the same way, etc) as that first vet did.

    Remember, the MARE also moves the semen upwards as well, so the burden is not always on the sperm in terms of movement.

    I know 2 cases where the semen was called "dead" by the vet(s) and the mares still got pregnant...



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