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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep. 1, 2007
    Posts
    671

    Default My horse is too wide for the Bates X-wide gullet!

    Ahhh!!

    He's only 15 hands! I know he's an Arab, but it still doesn't seem like he's that big!

    I used the gullet gauge to measure him and he was off the chart. I thought "people say this isn't the best way to measure", so I installed the X-wide gullet plate and went for a ride. Well, two decently large dry spots with heavily mussed up hair and a hollow backed ride prove that it certainly is too narrow.

    I'm running out of options. Looks like I may be sticking to western riding unless I can find something wide enough in my price range.

    Anyone have any ideas? Looking to spend less than $1500.



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun. 12, 2007
    Location
    CT
    Posts
    6,147

    Default

    Look for a used Black Country or Duett. I believe Trumbull Mountain carries both. Prestiges can be adjusted wider than a Wintec also. If you start with a 36 or 37cm, they can adjust it up 3 cm.



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov. 4, 2003
    Location
    Dallas, Georgia
    Posts
    16,895

    Default

    As a 2-Duett Saddle Owner (Rondo 2 and 3), they are built for the wide-bodied horse...not just the gullett but the whole saddle.

    HOWEVER, they are better suited to the flatter-backed horse. If there's a bit of spine scoop, they will bridge.

    If that's the case, check into the Thorowgood.
    <>< Sorrow Looks Back. Worry Looks Around. Faith Looks Up! -- Being negative only makes a difficult journey more difficult. You may be given a cactus, but you don't have to sit on it.



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul. 27, 2007
    Location
    Behind the Orange Curtain
    Posts
    9,694

    Default

    I ended up with a Schleese. The duett didn't fit me well and was not quite wide enough in the channel (my guy has a very wide back all the way).

    Good luck!

    (eta: Sorry, I kind of didn't finish my thought. You can get Schleese used and then have them fitted by the manufacturer).



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar. 4, 2008
    Location
    Central Indiana
    Posts
    536

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoMare View Post
    HOWEVER, they are better suited to the flatter-backed horse. If there's a bit of spine scoop, they will bridge.

    If that's the case, check into the Thorowgood.
    Ditto on this. I just sold my Duett Rondo 2 due to bridging on my guy. Aside from that, it's a lovely saddle. Good luck!
    "If ever I did not have a horse or dog in my keeping, I should feel I had lost touch with the earth." ~Beryl Markham



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar. 9, 2001
    Posts
    1,281

    Default

    My friend recently had a saddle fitter out to help her with saddles for her daughter's wide body QH/Welsh pony.

    She wound up going with the extra wide Thornhill Berlin.

    http://www.saddlefitter.com/berlin.htm

    Or you can try treeless--I've got a Black Forest Shasta that's super comfy and everybody that sits in it loves it. They make a more "english" version, the Aspen.

    http://www.blackforestsaddles.com/



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec. 13, 1999
    Location
    Greensboro, NC
    Posts
    36,205

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by acoustic View Post
    Ahhh!!

    He's only 15 hands! I know he's an Arab, but it still doesn't seem like he's that big!
    Welcome to SFH - Saddle Fitting Hell.

    I used the gullet gauge to measure him and he was off the chart. I thought "people say this isn't the best way to measure", so I installed the X-wide gullet plate and went for a ride. Well, two decently large dry spots with heavily mussed up hair and a hollow backed ride prove that it certainly is too narrow.
    Yep, that'll tell ya!

    I'm running out of options. Looks like I may be sticking to western riding unless I can find something wide enough in my price range.

    Anyone have any ideas? Looking to spend less than $1500.
    It depends on the front-back shape of your horse. Most of the Duetts (great saddles for the sub-$1k price, at least the non-dressage models) are only suitable for flatter-backed and non-short-backed horses. They are flat enough and not upswept enough that a curvy, or short-backed horse can't take it. But if your horse can fit one, and *you* can take the fairly wide twist, they can be awesome options.

    Black Country is another saddle - you are likely looking for a hoop-shape to the tree as opposed to an A-shape. Several BC models come that way. It's *definitely* worth going to www.trumbullmtn.com, doing the wither tracings, and getting started with them.

    Another REALLY good option but, like with BC not in your price range unless you can luck into a used model, is www.balanceinternational.com
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan. 1, 2003
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    1,744

    Default

    It may be the shape of your horse, not just his width. My guy (also a 15 hand Arab cross!) measured "too wide" for the Bates gullet gauge when I had my Wintec, but my medium-wide Barnsby fits him like a custom saddle. Go figure!



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar. 19, 2008
    Posts
    1,821

    Default

    If you're looking for an adjustable one, the Pessoas are a little wider than the Bates. One of our boarders bought a lovely new Bates last summer for her "I have a plateau for a back" horse; the x-wide gullet didn't fit. So she got an adjustable Pessoa and the biggest gullet fits him well.



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jul. 31, 2007
    Posts
    15,760

    Default

    Before you flip out.

    If you have a good farrier who hot shoes and makes his own, take the widest gullet to him ask if he can make an even wider one from bar stock. It's a PITA shot in the dark, but you might try.

    I'm not sure whether the gullet plates in Pessoas and Bates' are similar enought, but you might find a tack shop that stocks both and compare. You might be able to put the Pessoa Uber-Wide plate in your Bates.

    Sorry your horse has broken all the rules.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Apr. 1, 2008
    Posts
    181

    Default

    Duett will take the short backed horse if you do not need an 18" seat. For me, I needed the hoop tree that would handle a bit of a dip and then upswept panels since the horse is one inch short to the 18th. Throw in an
    18" seat with not too wide a twist and the fun really began. I ended up with a semi custom endurance a/p made by Andrew Hastilow......it fit beautiful !! I got the gribby buffalo for the seat



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec. 13, 1999
    Location
    Greensboro, NC
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    Default

    You cannot put anything wider than the XW plate in the Bates. You risk cracking things.

    Plus, trust me, the XW already changed the shape of the tree, and going wider will change it even more.
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Apr. 1, 2008
    Posts
    181

    Default

    For sizing ideas....the extra wide gullet in the Bates/Wintec is "about" a 34m in a Duett so you still have lots of options to go wider and get a good fit.



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Dec. 13, 1999
    Location
    Greensboro, NC
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    Default

    I'd probably agree on the 34cm-ish.

    However, there's a BIG difference in the shape of the XW plate vs the shape of a Duett tree. A 34cm Duett can fit a wider horse than a XW plate, depending on where the horse's width is (higher at the withers, or lower on the shoulders) because it's a more upside down U shape (ie a "hoop" tree) than the gullet plates are, even the XW.

    My guess is the horse in the OP really needs a more U/hoop shaped tree
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Dec. 7, 2001
    Location
    Cullowhere?, NC
    Posts
    8,668

    Default

    My big QH gelding can wear an XW Wintec/Bates plate, and was right between a 34 and 36 when I tried Duetts on him. But a western saddle isn't necessarily a "fix"; my guy also has very broad shoulders but a bit of dip in his back, and almost any western saddle will bridge on him. Granted, bridging can be fixed with creative padding in a western saddle, with more contact area to work with, but my horse is also between a full QH and a draft tree--the shoulders become a real issue when the tree doesn't sit behind them, and doesn't flare enough to clear them.

    The Bates CC fits him better than a Wintec, which seems to have flatter panels and this guy is definitely banana-shaped. We get away with it, but I keep going back to the Bates to make sure there is no bridge. And will be working with a good saddle fitter in the near future to try to find an even better solution. The Bates is decent, but he probably really needs a hoop.

    I would guess that the OP's horse is probably more wedge-shaped, wider in the barrel than in the shoulders, so the western option may work better than it does for me.

    There is an extra-wide Wintec AP saddle that has three plates, two of which are wider than the white plate. Plates are not interchangeable between the regular and wide saddles, and using one in a regular saddle does risk cracking the tree (voids the warranty for sure). Not one of their better saddles, but perhaps better than nothing, or at least a short-term, less expensive, fix.
    "One person's cowboy is another person's blooming idiot" -- katarine

    Spay and neuter. Please.



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Sep. 14, 2002
    Location
    Azle, Teh-has
    Posts
    7,854

    Default

    wintec has the XW saddle that comes with XW, XXW and XXW gullet.
    http://kaboomeventing.com/
    http://kaboomeventing.blogspot.com/
    Horses are amazing athletes and make no mistake -- they are the stars of the show!



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Feb. 13, 2005
    Location
    Columbus, OH
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    6,891

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JB View Post
    I'd probably agree on the 34cm-ish.
    Okay, this is like the 5th or 6th time I've heard this on COTH. If this is true, someone please explain to me why my horse whose wither tracing clearly matched the MW/blue gullet at the time was also a perfect fit for the 34cm Duett Presto Eventing. And that's not just my opinion--it was the recommendation of Nancy Temple at Duett after seeing the wither tracing. Nancy also told me that she considered her 32cm saddles to be roughly equivalent to most brands' medium width.
    ________________________
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  18. #18
    Join Date
    Dec. 13, 1999
    Location
    Greensboro, NC
    Posts
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    Default

    remember, it's also about shape. There's width, and there is shape. A 34cm in a hoop tree tends to fit larger than a 34cm A-shaped tree. And it's just a generality. I have not done a side by side comparison, but knowing how my horse fit a 38cm Duett (wrong front-back shape, and he'd have fit more "just right" in a 36cm Duett) and remembering how he fit in the XW plate, I would guess they are roughly the same. I would also say, having gone from the M to the MW to the W to the XW plates, that there isn't a big difference between MW and W, or between the W and XW.

    So, it's really a generality, not an absolute.
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jan. 25, 2008
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    141

    Default

    I worked with a local fitter and Trumbull Mountain when purchasing my Duetts.... ended up with an Encore and a Foxhunter... but also tried the Largo, Rondo, and Allegro. I will say that there are subtle differences between models... the close contact and jumping saddles seem to run slightly more narrow in my opinion. I had to go up a tree size between my dressage and jumping.

    I agree that a hoop tree would be worth trying... as what is with the Duetts and Black Country. I'd recommend working with Trumbull. Great group of people and they carry both those brands. It would be worth trying other brands too. I'd not recommend buying something outright without a trail first. Cheaper to pay shipping than be stuck trying to resell saddles that don't work. Especially if you are on a budget. If you can find a fitter locally, that may help immensely. I'd recommend someone who isn't a brand rep -- they are more apt to help you find the best saddle for your horse vs the best saddle in their line, which may not be ideal.

    Best wishes.



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