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  1. #1
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    Default So we are moving up the leg. Anyone ever have a sore shoulder (horse shoulder)?

    The farrier came out the other day and reset the Morrison roller shoes on my mare that has been diagnosed Nav. He said that he feels 100% sure that she does not have pain in her foot. He works with a vet every Friday at an equine podiatry center (he just told me this this week). As he picked her foot up to work on it and put it between his knees you can see her flinch with pain. Also, when his assistant put her foot on the stand to rasp she groaned on that side. Not to say that her foot was not hurting and the isoxuprine and shoe haven't helped that. But it is pretty clear now that it is her shoulder too (or only...no way to tell). I have a call in to a chiro and I have been doing some massage on her too. I am giving her aspirin twice a day for four days. Anyone heal a really sore shoulder? There is not much out there on treatment options. I did see one article that said you can ultrasound and then inject with cortisone in the bursa of the ??...what I don't know. I am in the learning stage of these things. I try to get all my ducks in a row before I make a move. I was going to give her the loading dose of Adequan this week but if the pain is not in a joint will it help anything or will I be just throwing away money. Anyone use it for muscle/tendon pain? If she doesn't improve in the next few weeks with chiro and massage and aspirin.I will make an appointment with the vet my farrier works with.I have to trailer to him, but no big deal. Of course when I went out today she had gotten into a kicking match with a gelding and scratched herself all to hell. One good deep cut in an area that gets proud flesh. I guess that will be my next adventure. She is not normally out with him .



  2. #2
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    Default

    According to some knowledgeable people I've heard say this in the past, navicular pain is often mistaken for shoulder pain.



  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Androcles View Post
    According to some knowledgeable people I've heard say this in the past, navicular pain is often mistaken for shoulder pain.
    I have read that as well. I am not sure how you could mistake what is going on now. It is certainly possible that her foot pain caused her to make her shoulder sore. I am not going to stop any of the treatment that we are doing for her foot but continue to try and locate all of her problems. Unfortunately, I think one thing may have caused another. She clearly has navicular changes on her xrays so it can't be ruled out completely. Just under control at this moment. But I feel sure her shoulder is hurting too.



  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gayla View Post
    The farrier came out the other day and reset the Morrison roller shoes on my mare that has been diagnosed Nav. He said that he feels 100% sure that she does not have pain in her foot. He works with a vet every Friday at an equine podiatry center (he just told me this this week). As he picked her foot up to work on it and put it between his knees you can see her flinch with pain. Also, when his assistant put her foot on the stand to rasp she groaned on that side. Not to say that her foot was not hurting and the isoxuprine and shoe haven't helped that. But it is pretty clear now that it is her shoulder too (or only...no way to tell). I have a call in to a chiro and I have been doing some massage on her too. I am giving her aspirin twice a day for four days. Anyone heal a really sore shoulder? There is not much out there on treatment options. I did see one article that said you can ultrasound and then inject with cortisone in the bursa of the ??...what I don't know. I am in the learning stage of these things. I try to get all my ducks in a row before I make a move. I was going to give her the loading dose of Adequan this week but if the pain is not in a joint will it help anything or will I be just throwing away money. Anyone use it for muscle/tendon pain? If she doesn't improve in the next few weeks with chiro and massage and aspirin.I will make an appointment with the vet my farrier works with.I have to trailer to him, but no big deal. Of course when I went out today she had gotten into a kicking match with a gelding and scratched herself all to hell. One good deep cut in an area that gets proud flesh. I guess that will be my next adventure. She is not normally out with him .

    Have you done nerve blocks? The can be very useful in isolating the area of pain.
    Turn off the computer and go ride!



  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by foggybok View Post
    Have you done nerve blocks? The can be very useful in isolating the area of pain.
    Yes, in her initial lameness exam she was blocked. She was mostly sound after the block. But she was also positive to the hoof testers. Now, she is totally non responsive to hoof testers on all parts of the hoof that normally cause a reaction in a NS horse. I don't think that has gone away. I just think that her shoulder hurts too. I am going off of the observations of my farrier as well. He is very very good. And like I said he works at a vet's clinic every Friday and sees many navicular horses. He is not disputing what my vet has said he is just saying that after the shoeing for navicular he doesn't think her feet are hurting and that it is her shoulder. He knows that is unusual. He recommended the chiro for her (he said he doesn't recommend that often as he doesn't belive in that voodoo shit ) and after she has seen him to go back to the vet if no better. I cannot totally rule out that it is her foot hurting but it doesn't look that way to me or him.



  6. #6
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    Maybe everything was hurting from the navicular syndrome, and now that your farrier seems to be getting it under control, the remaining painful area is becoming more obvious?
    If so, then as the foot continues to be treated, and you go ahead with the chiro/massage all of it will gradually start to feel better.



  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gayla View Post
    Yes, in her initial lameness exam she was blocked. She was mostly sound after the block. But she was also positive to the hoof testers. Now, she is totally non responsive to hoof testers on all parts of the hoof that normally cause a reaction in a NS horse. I don't think that has gone away. I just think that her shoulder hurts too. I am going off of the observations of my farrier as well. He is very very good. And like I said he works at a vet's clinic every Friday and sees many navicular horses. He is not disputing what my vet has said he is just saying that after the shoeing for navicular he doesn't think her feet are hurting and that it is her shoulder. He knows that is unusual. He recommended the chiro for her (he said he doesn't recommend that often as he doesn't belive in that voodoo shit ) and after she has seen him to go back to the vet if no better. I cannot totally rule out that it is her foot hurting but it doesn't look that way to me or him.
    oops, sorry, I didn't notice it was you when I posted.... I remember this horse now.

    She might have something secondary going on as Androcles said.

    But still keep the blocks in mind, it can help a lot.
    Turn off the computer and go ride!



  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by foggybok View Post
    oops, sorry, I didn't notice it was you when I posted.... I remember this horse now.

    She might have something secondary going on as Androcles said.

    But still keep the blocks in mind, it can help a lot.
    It would be interesting to block her shoulder.I have to let my (money) pond fill back up before I do any more diagnostic work. I was wondering what everyone thinks about the use of Adequan or Legend for problems other than joint problems?



  9. #9
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    I had a horse that had a shoulder injury. At first vet thought foot injury, then suspensory, but we blocked all that out and it felt to me like it was in the shoulder. It's difficult to block the shoulder, but there was some swelling the bursa. We injected the bursa, which helped some. Acupuncture actually helped the most (my vet also does acupuncture), but doesn't last forever. He improved somewhat but in the end we decided to find him an easier job than eventing. He's made a nice trail horse and also does a little low level jumping.
    Last edited by vali; Jun. 21, 2009 at 02:13 AM. Reason: added information



  10. #10
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    My understanding from working on a lay-up farm is that shoulder problems are rare, but not unheard of. Sometimes other problems make one think the shoulder is involved. We had one horse in with a fractured shoulder. It healed well and he went on to win many races (he favors a wet track and to come from behind, also suffers from anhydrosis). Of the hundreds of race horses who went through the lay-up facility while I worked there for three years, that was the only shoulder lameness.

    As a trimmer, I can say that I sometimes detect soreness higher in the leg when moving it around for trimming, but it would be tough for me to pinpoint exactly where or what is the problem. This is an area for a good lameness vet.



  11. #11
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    Oct. 25, 2005
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    Default Ground control shoes for navicular

    I have a mare that was diagnosed with nav. at age 4, we tried every kind of shoe to keep her confortable. I ran across the ground control shoe and my farrier cut out the center to keep the pressure off the frog area and she is so much better. She has been wearing the shoes for 3-4 years now. The shoes are VERY economical.........she is actually wearing the same shoes for almost a year now and they are not even worn!!!! He just trims her and puts them right back on. See them at www.plastichorseshoes.com



  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Androcles View Post
    According to some knowledgeable people I've heard say this in the past, navicular pain is often mistaken for shoulder pain.
    Ditto that!

    I was called in once to do massage work on a QH mare who had started to act up under saddle. She had extremely tight shoulders and at least 2 inch high coke can hooves in the front.

    I was not trimming at the time, so I strongly suggested using a different farrier and getting those hooves trimmed balanced and correctly, which meant taking the heels and toes down and to allow them to be barefoot for a while.

    Fortunately this owner listened and the mare immediately improved after her feet were trimmed down. No more issues under saddle after that.

    If your horse still toe loads in the front she's not completely right, even if she does not respond to hoof testers.

    Generally speaking from what I have seen and heard though, navicular horses who were treated with all sorts of shoeing solution without allowing the horse to go bare and heal the hooves with a correct trim generally deteriorate more over time.
    Last edited by BornToRide; Jun. 21, 2009 at 02:19 PM.



  13. #13
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    Arthritis in the shoulder is pretty rare, but not unheard of--though it normally seems to be a result of an old injury or chronic issue lower in the leg as opposed to presenting in the absense of any other issues.

    My gelding had arthritis in his shoulder. He would trip occasionally. He didn't do well while balancing on that diagonal for trims. I did the nerve block and radiographs (it's not that easy to get rads of the shoulder)...determined the problem. Treated with a variety of things. Towards the end it was Adequan + bute.

    He did not have problems in his hoof or lower leg. We suspect that he had an injury to that shoulder prior to my owning him.

    Just wanted to throw that out there because it CAN be an issue. Though it seems rare.
    A good horseman doesn't have to tell anyone...the horse already knows.

    Might be a reason, never an excuse...



  14. #14
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    I actually think that shoulder/shoulder sling injuries are much more common than diagnosed and that they can cause foot issues (such as an upright foot on that side). Hows that for an opposing opinion?

    My vet, who is also a chiro, checks shoulders regularly and adjusts them. So does my regular chiro. But when I have had acute shoulder injuries, rest, accupuncture and shoulder injections have been what it takes to fix them.. and attending to the feet, which seem to want to do some interesting things to make up for the shoulder issue.
    "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
    ---
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.



  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by EqTrainer View Post
    I actually think that shoulder/shoulder sling injuries are much more common than diagnosed and that they can cause foot issues (such as an upright foot on that side
    Let's oppose that IMO the upright hoof isn't necessarily created by a shoulder issue. in most cases that more upright foot comes from less loading thanks to side dominance that that generally originates in the hind end.

    The non-dominant hoof is generally the one that tends to be less loaded and grows more upright and of course side dominance causes musculo-skeletal issues just as it does in humans. If muscles (agonists and antagonists) do not properly support each other, one or the other will overwork and then cause issues. In humans a typical example is overworking the muscles in the arm when doing tasks, rather than using the arm properly from the shoulder.



  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by EqTrainer View Post
    I actually think that shoulder/shoulder sling injuries are much more common than diagnosed and that they can cause foot issues (such as an upright foot on that side). Hows that for an opposing opinion?

    My vet, who is also a chiro, checks shoulders regularly and adjusts them. So does my regular chiro. But when I have had acute shoulder injuries, rest, accupuncture and shoulder injections have been what it takes to fix them.. and attending to the feet, which seem to want to do some interesting things to make up for the shoulder issue.
    You know how you get a feeling about something. I have always had a feeling that this mare's shoulder hurt. I thought it was from her frog infection and her limping to avoid the pain and just sore. Then I thought it was just her foot (heel pain) and now I am back to the shoulder. I think that it all hurts from time to time. I think her foot has heel pain if trimmed wrong, and her shoulder hurts from being painful for so long on that foot either from the long standing frog infection (no telling how long she had that. I think it could have been years) and then the upright foot that followed. The frog infection probably was worse on that foot because she was favoring the other side as borntoride has talked about. So, I think it is a systemic problem. I have always thought that light work would be good for this horse. Whheeewww. Everything in life takes 10 times longer than you ever dreamed it would and is ten times harder that you imagined. But I have to say I enjoy this horse so much I don't regret a minute of it. I went by tonight to hose her off and tend to her cuts she got yesterday. She was sound at the walk for the first time in a long time. She had aspirin this morning and tonight. If that is all it takes to get her feeling better I am optimistic. I am going to give her that until the container runs out...I think about 2 more days and then see how she does with out it. She was really peppy too! That makes me really happy. Thanks y'all for everything.



  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by BornToRide View Post
    IMO the upright hoof isn't necessarily created by a shoulder issue. in most cases that more upright foot comes from less loading thanks to side dominance that that generally originates in the hind end.
    Or maybe it comes from a shoulder injury. How can you possibly know with such certainty.



  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Androcles View Post
    Or maybe it comes from a shoulder injury. How can you possibly know with such certainty.
    Because uneven front hooves are the rule rather than the excepetion or else most horses out there would have had previous shoulder injuries and I know for certain in many cases that they have not, yet they also have uneven front hooves

    If there was indeed a previous shoulder injury, other signs for it would most likely be found such as muscle loss or scar tissue, changes in movement from before and after, like more toe dragging, etc.



  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by BornToRide View Post
    Because uneven front hooves are the rule rather than the excepetion or else most horses out there would have had previous shoulder injuries and I know for certain in many cases that they have not, yet they also have uneven front hooves

    If there was indeed a previous shoulder injury, other signs for it would most likely be found such as muscle loss or scar tissue, changes in movement from before and after, like more toe dragging, etc.
    Or maybe there are other signs, that you are unaware of and went undiagnosed.
    And what about all the other ones you have no personal experience of, have never seen, yet are perfectly willing to declare a diagnosis on?

    And even if uneven front hooves are the rule, which I don't agree with, that doesn't mean they are all upright on one.



  20. #20
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    I have to add in here that although my mare has one upright foot and one flatter the one that is more upright is not really a bad foot now that it is trimmed properly. It is just not going to look like the other one.



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