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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan. 15, 2009
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    89

    Question Banamine or Bute- What is used to Mask Pain?- Long Story but Need Advice!

    I have a horse that has been a case even too difficult for Dr. House to figure out!! He is a 6 y/o warmblood, 17.2 hand and pretty big boned. I have had him for a year and a half, the vet passed him as sound at the pre-purchase, but ever since I have had him, he has had some issues.

    First off, he is club footed on the right, so the left front has very little heel and the right front has a large heel. It is like he walks around with a flip flop on one front foot and a stiletto heel on the other. At the trot, he moves his left front shoulder freely and the stride is normal, but on the right he will only move the shoulder about half way. He is very reluctant to move the right leg at full stride to match the left. He does not bob his head at the trot or canter. At the canter, he will pick up the left lead all day long, but is very reluctant to pick up the right lead. I have tried on a small circle, in the corner of the arena, etc. for him to pick up the right lead. In the round pen, he is the same way. To the right, he will 9 out of 10 times pick up the left lead.

    History: He moved as mentioned above when I bought him. After I bought him, my farrier found old resin in the left front hoof, like a quarter crack had been hidden or attempted to be dealt with in the past. The crack got worse and worse, so I took him to a farrier that works specifically with foot problems. After 8 months, the foot was like new and the quarter crack had grown out. I thought maybe this was the reason he was moving so weirdly. I brought him back to work and he continued to move very oddly at the trot and canter. We have blocked everything on the right front from the knee down and there was very little improvement. He got a bone scan done, which was clean, so my vet suspected soft tissue irritation around the high suspensory. We did a month of theroscope treatment, and no improvement. Now I am stuck on where to proceed. I have thought about moving onto the shoulder next....?

    I have heard vets recommend that people do a few days of banamine or bute to try and mask the pain and to tell if the horse really has a pain problem. I would like to try this with my horse. Has anyone tried this before? I was thinking of 3 days of banamine or bute and see if there is any improvement. Help please!



  2. #2
    Join Date
    May. 21, 2009
    Location
    Apex, NC
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    688

    Default

    I believe it is the bute. If it is an inflammatory issue, the bute should help reduce the inflammation, thus causing the "masking" you are talking about.



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb. 1, 2008
    Location
    Nowhere, Maryland
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    Default

    Generally it's a week of bute, at least IME--1 gram 1 or 2 x a day--but double check with your vet and see if they recommend something different.



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec. 31, 2000
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    El Paso, TX
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    Also, have vet check out left HIND. Many times, a reluctance to pick up a certain lead is caused by an issue in the hind leg that would be the first to strike off in that lead.

    Will he canter around loose on the right lead?

    PS- I might try 1 gram of Bute for 2 days, but there's no way I'd go for 2 grams, or a week without a vet's supervision. Bute can cause ulcers and other problems.
    Hillary Clinton - proven liar, cheat, traitor and defender of rapists! Anyone but Hillary 2016! https://www.facebook.com/AntiHillary2016



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb. 23, 2008
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    4,266

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    Quote Originally Posted by jetsmom View Post

    PS- I might try 1 gram of Bute for 2 days, but there's no way I'd go for 2 grams, or a week without a vet's supervision. Bute can cause ulcers and other problems.
    Like the paralyzed penis which has to be amputated!!! Please get your vets advice about the right drug and dosage for your horse!

    Might not be relevant here, but sometimes a vet will use Robaxin, a muscle relaxant, to see if there is a muscle cramp or tension issue causing the weird movement. That might be something else to ask about.

    Good luck! Poor horsey.



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan. 16, 2002
    Location
    West Coast of Michigan
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    Both banamine and bute are NSAIDs and have nearly  identical risks and benefits.
    Click here before you buy.



  7. #7
    Join Date
    May. 31, 2007
    Location
    Aiken, SC
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    4,696

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    Quote Originally Posted by deltawave View Post
    Both banamine and bute are NSAIDs and have nearly  identical risks and benefits.
    Is that you speaking slowly or did someone get a Blackberry?



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar. 8, 2004
    Location
    Baltimore, MD
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    21,281

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    Quote Originally Posted by twofatponies View Post
    Like the paralyzed penis which has to be amputated!!! Please get your vets advice about the right drug and dosage for your horse!

    Might not be relevant here, but sometimes a vet will use Robaxin, a muscle relaxant, to see if there is a muscle cramp or tension issue causing the weird movement. That might be something else to ask about.

    Good luck! Poor horsey.
    Bute causes a paralyzed penis that needs to be amputated? That's a new one on me.



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb. 23, 2008
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    4,266

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    Quote Originally Posted by Laurierace View Post
    Bute causes a paralyzed penis that needs to be amputated? That's a new one on me.
    Oh never mind. Ace. Not bute. There was just a thread about it a week ago or so. I shouldn't type after 8 pm.

    slap slap slap bonk (me knocking myself upside the head). sorry!!!!



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec. 31, 2000
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    El Paso, TX
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    Quote Originally Posted by deltawave View Post
    Both banamine and bute are NSAIDs and have nearly  identical risks and benefits.
    I used Bute in my post as an example, because that's what was mentioned in the previous post.

    I think Bute is more commonly implicated in ulcers because most people give it orally, whereas Banamine is more commonly done by IV (at least in the barns I've been at.)
    Hillary Clinton - proven liar, cheat, traitor and defender of rapists! Anyone but Hillary 2016! https://www.facebook.com/AntiHillary2016



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jul. 31, 2007
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    16,783

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    If this horse were mine, I'd

    1) Absolutely do the pain-masking test at home. You have put plenty of money into formal diagnostics.

    2) I'd use bute (cheaper) and feed the ulcer-preventing med of my choice along with it.

    3) I'd use *plenty* for a horse your side-- what's the point of a half-a$$ed trial? I don't think 2 or even 3 grams a day for 5 with ulcer prophylaxis is going to kill a 17.2-hander. My ballsy vet would probably go even higher.

    4) I'd also do more of my own investigation. Do you know how to palpate his suspensory and flexor tendons for degrees of pain and swelling? Can you do a basic lameness exam by yourself-- see better and worse, for example, or get some kind of clue from a flexion test? Diagnosing lameness is complicated, even an art form, but if you learn some yourself, you won't have to pay for every single clue.

    4) Though your horse's problems up front suggest that as an obvious place to look, I would think about the hind end too. That's a different topic for a different thread.

    5) If I thought there was something going on behind and my horse palpated sore, especially in his back, I'd think about a second trial with Robaxin.

    Hope this free, random internet, guide to "scientific lameness diagnosis in the privacy of your own home" helps.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan. 8, 2004
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    IN
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    And if it is a suspensory issue (which it could be from how you describe it, but it could also be many other things...) a week off isn't going to fix it.

    If your vet still feels like it is soft tissue-- ultrasound or MRI and then treat correctly-- meaning several months plus of time off from real work.



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Nov. 26, 2003
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    NE FL
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    Quote Originally Posted by twofatponies View Post
    Like the paralyzed penis which has to be amputated!!! Please get your vets advice about the right drug and dosage for your horse!

    that's ace, not bute.
    "Perhaps the final test of anybody's love of dogs is their willingness to permit them to make a camping ground of the bed" -Henry T. Merwin



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Sep. 6, 2000
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    Decatur, GA
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    I have a mare that is doing the same exact thing as you describe. She has the flat foot/high foot thing. My mare was diagnosed with navicular syndrome. Now that her foot isn't hurting her shoulder is showing as really sore. I am just beginning to investigate the shoulder thing. I do think you can block the shoulder which will be my next move when I can afford it and if she doesn't improve from chiro/massage. If you have investigated all parts of the leg it does sound like shoulder to me. I think that shoulder injuries in horses must be pretty rare. Vets seem reluctant to diagnose as it is more common to be a problem in the legs. When I palpate my mare's shoulder she becomes very uncomfortable and actually picks up her foot and stands it on its toe like it is hurting all the way down to her toes! What does you guy do when you poke around his shoulder?



  15. #15
    Join Date
    May. 23, 2002
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    Mass./Southern California
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    FYI: Banamine only has an effect for 6 hours. 2 grams of Bute has an effect for 15-20 hours.

    In any case be careful, a horse can turn up worse after a pain med. wears off.
    "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Apr. 6, 2005
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    In a barn
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    I've worked with a few horses who were horribly club footed on one front, and the pain always seemed to be in the shoulder (concluded after thorough vet exams). I don't know if it's something about their conformation that causes this or what, but that's what I'd be looking at first. JMHO.



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Dec. 13, 1999
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    Greensboro, NC
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    Quote Originally Posted by deltawave View Post
    Both banamine and bute are NSAIDs and have nearly  identical risks and benefits.
    Quote Originally Posted by equinelaw View Post
    Is that you speaking slowly or did someone get a Blackberry?
    I have to say that had me ROTFLMAO!!! I saw tDW's post and thought WTH??? Then I saw it was DW and went Then saw el's post and
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  18. #18
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    Jan. 16, 2002
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    That was weird with the font! You all are very sharp--I was trying out my new mini-notebook PC and that is one of the things I haven't figured out yet.

    ANY NSAID CAN CAUSE ULCERS. Even the injectable ones.
    Click here before you buy.



  19. #19
    Join Date
    Sep. 6, 2000
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    Decatur, GA
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    Just as a side note. I think many people imagine NSAIDS burning holes in the intestinal tract. But it actually inhibits the production of the mucus that covers the entire length of the intestines. This is why an ulcer can appear anywhere. I am sure that is an over simplified explanation but I think it is helpful to know how they work.



  20. #20
    Join Date
    May. 5, 2002
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    1,012

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    Ummm, isn't the very problem with a club foot a contraction of the digital flexior tendon? So mechanically the left and the right feet can't have the same movement ,really .Perhaps something can be done with the shoeing? I think it might also be possible to cut the check ligament. Surely the vet would start with the problem being the club foot?????



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