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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan. 2, 2006
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    Default How many people breed to produce breeding stock?

    I've been thinking about the recent stallion threads and I've been wondering how many people breed with the F1 result in mind as a goal (if you get a colt, 99.99% of the time it will be a future gelding unless someone else buys it as a stallion prospect)? And how many people breed to breed breeding stock primarily - to produce future broodmares and future stallion candidates (who may or may not have a performance career)?

    Is there a difference? Should there be a difference? And if so, how does that impact your breeding choices/selections?



  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Molly Malone View Post
    IAnd how many people breed to breed breeding stock primarily - to produce future broodmares and future stallion candidates (who may or may not have a performance career)?

    Is there a difference? Should there be a difference? And if so, how does that impact your breeding choices/selections?
    when I began I thought we should breed only to sell...

    well.....I have changed my mind on this...and now after 10 years the mares that have done the best for me(which are now old) I wish to replicate...and I regret selling some of the females I have sold off...

    I have seen just how many nutter butters there are out there (owners and mares) and I am safer (time,money and safety) just replacing from within....even if it takes longer

    best
    Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
    I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec. 2, 2002
    Location
    Waterford, VA USA
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    4,846

    Default

    I'm basically with Tamara on this.... I breed to sell, however, occasionally there is this really nice filly born that I just have to have as part of my broodmare band. All of my colts get gelded....
    Siegi Belz
    www.stalleuropa.com
    2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
    Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr. 28, 2008
    Location
    California
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    1,848

    Default

    I plan to keep some of my fillies, maybe one every other year. There's no harm in showing those fillies and getting them undersaddle and then selling if them if they don't turn out to be breeding quality. This year I had an absolutly wonderful filly. She's got the movement, conformation, and temperment that I would love to have in a broodmare, so she stays for a while.

    I'm still awaiting one foal, and if it's a filly, I really am hoping to keep it as well. It all depends though.

    Overall, yes, I do breed to improve my breeding stock as far as fillies and mares go. All of my colts get gelded as well.
    Making Your Ambitions a Reality at Secret Ambition Stables.
    Quality Welsh Ponies and Welsh Crosses bred for sport
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    Section A and Section B Welsh Ponies at stud



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug. 26, 2001
    Location
    Lancaster, PA
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    972

    Default

    I too, bred to sell. In the past I have regretted selling some of my best mares to carry on my line. I did keep one of the mares but unfortunately lost her to EPM a couple of years ago and the mare has since had a run of colts. The WB colts, I have little to no interest in keeping and raising them as stallions, so I think if they are strong stallion candidates and they are behaving themselves I will keep them entire while continuing to market them otherwise they are gelded.

    At some point your broodmares get old...I have managed to collect a few old girls myself.
    So if you are planning on staying in the breeding busines you either have to breed yourself future broodmares or buy them...right?
    www.trevelyanfarm.com
    Follow us: http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Tre...1609022?ref=ts
    Breeders of Sport Horses & New Forest Sport Ponies



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug. 6, 2007
    Posts
    465

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Molly Malone View Post
    Is there a difference? Should there be a difference? And if so, how does that impact your breeding choices/selections?
    This is a really great question, kind of like the TB breeder's conundrum of "are you breeding to race or breeding to sell" - shouldn't that be the same thing? Yet it is not.

    While I personally would prefer all of my breeding stock to have had a performance career of some type, it is not always possible. Most of the time my goal in breeding is to produce the best example of the breed I can, that goes on and performs for it's new owner. Of course performance can include just being a great trail riding buddy! Recently though my thoughts have changed somewhat. We have managed to "accumulate" a very nice group of mares and while I would love to continue to breed out, giving me the ability to pick the correct stallion for each and every mare each year, it's becoming more and more evident having our own stallion would make a lot of sense. I have at least one mare that I haven't bred yet ( performing now) and is pretty much what I would strive to produce in type, temperament,ability etc. One of the reasons she has not been bred has been due to the lack of my ability to find a perfect mate for her. WHen I do breed her for the first time in my life I will be hoping for a colt.... and hope to raise a stallion prospect from her. ( of course that ensures I will get all fillies- just fine too!)



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan. 2, 2006
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    Colorado
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    Default

    This would seem to indicate that broodstock 'happens', rather than being bred for.

    Do you think it's just a few people who have the luxury to be able to plan 'breed A to B to get foal C. Breed C to D to get foal F. And foal F should be, according to all my calculations, The Perfect One'. Are these people the 'Breeding Greats' who have the vision, the drive, the money to create the future Breed Standards?

    Should all breeders be striving for the long term betterment of the breed, and if they aren't, is that OK too?

    How many top performing stallions are the result of such a long term plan and how many 'F1 good choices', I wonder?



  8. #8

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Molly Malone View Post
    This would seem to indicate that broodstock 'happens', rather than being bred for.
    Are these people the 'Breeding Greats' who have the vision, the drive, the money to create the future Breed Standards?
    I dunno...I have had a lot of mares over the years....not being able to "inherit" any from a family long established in <x>

    so ya gotta start somewhere...and I have had some real pieces of crap (dispositionally) sold to me as "lovely" and I have had some nice dispositioned animals give me damned nutters for babies (again guess what they "forgot" ? to mention)....

    but you don't know til the babies are here (and that takes one year)...and you try to halter the little idiots...then was this a fluke or is the next one just as bad ??? (and that takes another year)

    and the stallion you use has he ever had a colt do more than a 12 inch stride behind... ? and equally nutters

    and on and on and on...as long as people can bald faced lie about the stuff they are selling it will be that way....



    another thing I thought was interesting was people talking somewhere here on COTH about how "great" certain horses bloodlines were to handle...

    I forget the exact place and wording, but all I could think to myself about the "Highly Praised " animals was that all horses should behave this way and why on earth were so many people ohhhing and ahhhing about <insert trait in a well mannered horse>...for obvious reasons I kept this to myself

    I guess people could assume that it's about being able to have money...for me, it is more culling pretty hard,trying to upgrade every season and having a decade worth of patience

    best
    Last edited by Tamara in TN; Jun. 13, 2009 at 04:43 PM.
    Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
    I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar. 10, 2008
    Posts
    260

    Default

    I definantly breed for future broodmares. But I like unique color and when I started breeding there was very little quality to be had in a dilute package. I would rather have quality so I purchased two Very nice well bred broodmares and bred to dilute stallions hoping for a very nice dilute filly, which I got, then kept the best color fillys to breed to high quality well known stallions hoping again to get an excellent filly with color to keep, and on down the line. The high quality non color mares I have (most of my stock) get bred for foals to sell (non color). The color mares get bred for me- if the babies are good enough they're keepers, if not they are for sale.
    Most of my babies have a proformance carreer with me in the hunters or my hubby in the jumpers, just because I like my mares to have a proformance record, not just be well conformed with good bloodlines and pretty colors.
    Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most...now where did I put those marbles...
    Secretary, WTF Registry



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov. 28, 2003
    Location
    American Midwest
    Posts
    1,774

    Default

    I breed to produce breeding stock. I have hypomatings planned out to 3 generations...any more than that makes my head hurt
    Liz
    Lionwood Irish Draught Horses
    irishdraught.co



  11. #11

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Waterwitch View Post
    I breed to produce breeding stock. I have hypomatings planned out to 3 generations...any more than that makes my head hurt
    I too try to think in terms of "ok..if this baby is <this> then it can be put back to this horse" or "if I breed her it needs to be to this stallions as she is a maiden and he makes smaller colts"...I have one more generation to go before I need to go "outside" for a different stallion.... but that is a full 7-8 years from now...


    best
    Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
    I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jun. 4, 2002
    Location
    Suffolk, VA
    Posts
    16,684

    Default

    As a preservation breeder of a rare breed, I am doing both. I breed to sell and I breed for outstanding individuals that other breeders would be interested in. I stick to foundation bloodlines only. I also breed for sport horse movement and type which really goes along quite well with our breed standard. They are such neat athletic little horses. I've kept a few fillies of my own program and this season I finally got the colt I've been waiting for. I also have purchased a lovely colt of other bloodlines to use as an outcross on my own fillies. It's still so hard to breed via AI in our breed as few stallion owners offer fresh cooled semen and we are very spread out.



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb. 2, 2003
    Location
    Wynnewood, Oklahoma
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    5,195

    Default

    <rolling eyes>...Well...I "would" breed to keep a filly to replace some of my gals that are getting older. Except I get NOTHING BUT COLTS!!!! Geez. Just shoot me and get it over with. I've had one filly now in the last 53 foalings. ONE!!! The last two foals (Redwine x Faberge/Frohwind) and (Davidor x Morticia/Mannhattan) have been everything that I've been looking for in fillies and the mares were bred with that in mind. Well...I've had two exceptional <drum roll please> beautiful, black colts. The foal born yesterday - Davidor x Morticia/Mannhattan - is OMG exquisite. Comes right over to people, knows no stranger, HUGE, black with one tiny little star, little teenie snip and one hind short sock. His canter and trot is breathtaking and did I mention he is SWEET??? What's wrong with him? He's a boy <pounding head on computer>. Ah well...maybe I'll keep him anyway <lol>. Yeah, that's the ticket. I need another stallion. Yup. Oh and we figured with his looks, his color, with the current movie and book fad, and with his mother's name being Morticia? We named him Dracula !

    Kathy St.Martin
    Equine-Reproduction.com, LLC
    http://www.equine-reproduction.com
    Equine-Reproduction.com Now offering one on one customized training!
    Leg-Up Equestrian Assistance Program, Inc. A 501(c)(3) non-profit charity



  14. #14

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    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Equine Reproduction View Post
    <rolling eyes>... Just shoot me and get it over with. I've had one filly now in the last 53 foalings. ONE!!!
    ouch.......that smarts!

    best
    Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
    I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Apr. 30, 2009
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    2,907

    Default

    Molly Malone This would seem to indicate that broodstock 'happens', rather than being bred for.

    Do you think it's just a few people who have the luxury to be able to plan 'breed A to B to get foal C. Breed C to D to get foal F. And foal F should be, according to all my calculations, The Perfect One'. Are these people the 'Breeding Greats' who have the vision, the drive, the money to create the future Breed Standards?

    Should all breeders be striving for the long term betterment of the breed, and if they aren't, is that OK too?

    How many top performing stallions are the result of such a long term plan and how many 'F1 good choices', I wonder?
    I think you are right that brood stock happens rather that being bred for. But not because people do not try for it, just because there is a randomness to genetics that gives you a variation in results. Even if you bred for the perfect breeding mare, you might get something that is good but not good enough for your breeding standards. Just like stallions, in Germany, even with all the right bloodlines, there are many, many that do not qualify. If someone just breeds A to B then crosses with C as preplanned, I would think they are ignoring the individual horse and are more about the papers. I would rather buy from someone that is super picky about their mares instead of someone who is happy with most of their stock, even if it is really good.

    Oh and I do believe the great ones just do happen, well just happen as one out of many, many well thought out attempts.
    Last edited by stoicfish; Jun. 13, 2009 at 09:06 PM. Reason: last sentence



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jun. 23, 2004
    Location
    Loudoun County, VA
    Posts
    10,423

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    I breed with the intent to produce upper level caliber horses with the bloodlines, temperament, and conformation worthy to be bred. That does not mean that every foal produced will meet these goals, but I choose matches very carefully with these aspirations foremost in mind.



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jun. 13, 2009
    Posts
    240

    Default

    i definately breed to produce breeding stock, and try to keep all my fillies. this does present a few problems, as often my choices for what i would like to have as broodmare sires, are not popular commercial choices for colts to be for sale

    If i hadnt kept all my fillies, i would be in trouble as many of my original mares are now dead or getting too old to breed from. Also i dont have alot of money to be able to go and buy new mares, good mares, every few years, and this way i can pick and choose how to build on the generations.

    i did have to go out and buy 300 acres though, other wise the cost of keeping them is exorbitant, but i still only have about 12 mares and fillies, as i too have had many colts, and some fillies turn out too small or not quite how you hope

    also some of them are not good with frozen semen which is all i use and are then rehomed with someone who uses cooled semen or their own stallion

    Paulamc



  18. #18
    Join Date
    Oct. 5, 2008
    Location
    The Wild West
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    588

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by stoicfish View Post
    I think you are right that brood stock happens rather that being bred for. But not because people do not try for it, just because there is a randomness to genetics that gives you a variation in results. Even if you bred for the perfect breeding mare, you might get something that is good but not good enough for your breeding standards. Just like stallions, in Germany, even with all the right bloodlines, there are many, many that do not qualify. If someone just breeds A to B then crosses with C as preplanned, I would think they are ignoring the individual horse and are more about the papers. I would rather buy from someone that is super picky about their mares instead of someone who is happy with most of their stock, even if it is really good.

    Oh and I do believe the great ones just do happen, well just happen as one out of many, many well thought out attempts.
    Really good post. I agree. You never know what you have until it is born and you get a chance to understand the foal's conformation and temperament. And then you never know what the foal will produce, or if it will produce,as breeding stock. Also, you have to be very strong in your idea of what you want because ten top breeders can have very different ideas of what makes a quality broodmare and that can often depend on what day the top breeders viewed your mare. And then there is always the problem that paying for the breeding program often depends on actually selling horses.



  19. #19
    Join Date
    Sep. 15, 2005
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    near historic Gettysburg PA
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    All of our current mares are at least second generation our breeding program, a third generation mare is being given consideration which we will verify as she begins a shortened performance career before breeding. We have started a 4th generation mare toward her sport career planning to do ET early on and throughout ,but keeping her in competition in the hunters....I am also closely watching two full sisters to decide which I like MORE.. so am holding off on actively marketting either one.. and the dam is in foal again. While many daughters we bred went on to very good breeding careers, these few that made the grade represent only 3 currrent ( two of them were ET Born ) and two past mares total we kept of a 30 year program, and plans for a limited few more.. I have bought other mares in the past to imporve upon our base, and been disspaointed in the resulting results each time..

    I KNOW these entire families VERY well, and consider the "knowns" to be an INVALUABLE advantage to my future program in each descending generation.

    Watermark Farm has kept some of their best mares in a family tracking program, and have proven these mares very well by repeating the combinations many times and have full siblings of the daughters in their program aspiring to high levels.

    It Takes way more time and energy than most are prepared to invest in their beliefs.

    IS this action an assurance to your buying clientele that you stand behind your product, as you use it yourself ?
    Last edited by MagicRoseFarm; Jun. 14, 2009 at 01:07 AM.
    "It's not how good you ride, It's how good your horse covers for you." -Kristan
    Magic Rose Farm- home of Beste Gold & Hot Shot
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  20. #20
    Join Date
    Nov. 14, 2004
    Location
    Indiana
    Posts
    43

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    I plan to keep the best 1 or 2 daughters from each of my mares, as replacements for them when they get older. The rest of the offspring get sold where they will hopefully go on to have successful show careers, but of course they don't always end up in show homes. But as for the "keepers", I have no reason to spend the thousands of dollars it would take to give them a performance career before they are broodmares. I'm perfectly comfortable in my ability to assess their quality and temperament. I don't really find that a show record on a broodmare adds much if anything to the value of her foals, anyway. People want to know what she has produced, not what she has done. Having successful siblings is the best advertisement for a young horse.



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