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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug. 23, 2002
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    Prospect, ME
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    4,563

    Default RPSI - Possibly Stupid Question?

    I have 2 mares with foals at their sides that I am seriously considering taking to an RPSI inspection this summer, so I've been reading through the website trying to get a handle on what I need to do. I'm confused about the DNA. The sire of both foals is JC registered, as is one of the mares. My other mare is a total unknown pedigree-wise.
    Do I need to submit DNA samples for both mares and both foals, or just the babies and the unpapered mare? Does the RPSI and the JC share DNA information?

    I'm sorry if it's spelled out on the RPSI site, but I'm making my brain hurt trying to understand what I need to do!
    -Jessica



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr. 26, 2004
    Location
    Petaluma, CA USA
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    2,911

    Default

    The parentage has been verified by the JC so you just need to bring the original registration papers and a copy (that they will keep) along with the 5 generation pedigree.



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug. 23, 2002
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    Prospect, ME
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    Default

    What about my mare with no papers? Does she need to have her DNA verified before her colt can be inspected?
    -Jessica



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct. 3, 2002
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    it's not the edge of the earth, but you can see it from here
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    Default

    The mares AND foals both have to be presented.

    If foal is at side, no DNA needed (at least not last time I went--that may have changed?) Apologies if it's changed since... but DNA was only for yearlings & older. (or, for the one orphan foal who was presented 'at side' of his adopted dam.)

    Your JC mare is eligible for MMB, depending on her score. Your unpapered mare is only eligible for the PreBook, regardless of her score, so the highest the foal can go is Book II. It might only be able to go PreBook if the JC sire is not approved for breeding with RPSI.

    If you can call them, RPSI (in the States) is FABULOUS about talking you through who can do what.
    InnisFailte Pinto Sporthorses & Coloured Cobs
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Bits are like cats, what's one more? (Petstorejunkie)



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug. 23, 2002
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    Prospect, ME
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    Default

    Ok Thank you so much! I knew the foals would be presented at their dams' sides, but was confused about the DNA. The stallion is approved - he had a filly awarded Silver last year

    PintoPiaffe, I'm sending you a pm
    Edited to add... your box is full! Are you still located in Dedham? We are moving to Prospect (next to Bucksport) this month, and I wanted to pick your brain about vets - I used to use a clinic when I lived in Damariscotta that I wasn't wild about and wanted to get your take on who is up that way.
    -Jessica



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct. 23, 2002
    Location
    Kent,WA USA
    Posts
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    Default

    Just to add to what PintoPiaffe said...and yes...she's right on only needing DNA if foal isn't at mare's side.
    Make sure you know if the stallion is APPROVED or just RECORDED (not approved). Foals from unapproved stallions still get rated but they get a 1/2 brand and white papers instead of pink (not full papers). If the stallion is fully APPROVED then yes, you foal from JC mare would get pink papers as long as mare is entered in MMB. Unreg mare will be pre mare book so white papers no matter what.

    Hope that helps...call their office...they are very helpful and nice to work with!
    Andrea Clibborn-Anderson
    www.crestlinefarm.com
    Home of Pinto Dutch Warmblood Palladio



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug. 23, 2002
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    Prospect, ME
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    Default

    crestline, Thank You! I will call them.

    The stallion never went to an approval, so he must just be recorded not approved, correct?
    So my colt out of my unregistered mare by a recorded but not approved stallion can get nothing more then white papers, right? What does that mean for him down the road if I (it's a big if) decided to breed him? Will his babies be penalized because their father is out of an unregistered mare?
    He is really pretty fancy, and it kills me that I don't have papers for his mother - she's such a nice mare, but came from a dealer with no tattoo/brand/etc.
    -Jessica



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar. 17, 2003
    Location
    North Texas, US
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    Default

    If the stallion is not in Book I (fully approved) then both foals are only eligible for a Certificate of Pedigree (white papers) and NOT full registration.

    There are only 3 or 4 TB stallions in Book I. The list of all the stallions are on their website...www.rhpsi.com.

    As an SO, it is very frustrating to me when MO aren't fully informed of the stallion's status. I was at an inspection 2 years and there was a VERY Pissed Off (and IMO rightly so) MO who found out at the inspection that the stallion wasn't approved.

    Foals of unapproved stallions are still graded Bronze, Silver, and Gold at the inspections. Silver is a combined score between 7.0 and 7.9.

    If the foals are fillies, then they would be eligible only for the premare book and their foals would only get COPs (white papers) as well. Colts would not be eligible for approval with RPSI, again any foals would only get COPs. The only registries the stallion might be approved by are the AWS or AWR. You could register the foals with PHR, just to record the pedigrees. I believe that if you nominate the stallion to IJF, IHF, then they now have some kind of registration available to foals...not my thing, but my understanding.

    Hope that helps a little. Do call or email JoAnn and Ernie, they are super to work with .
    www.debracysporthorses.com
    Home of Sea Accounts xx
    AHS/HV, ATA, GOV, RPSI, JC, AQHA, APHA, APtHA
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  9. #9
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    Aug. 23, 2002
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    Prospect, ME
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    Default

    That does help, but it confirms my fears. I had hoped that there was a chance I could build up from the basic registration over the years and generations. But no matter what, I can never produce better then white papers with the two foals from this year.
    My own stallion whom I purchased last year is also a nice horse, and I'm excited about his bloodlines, but because he won less then 100k on the track, sat in a field breeding a couple racehorse babies until I bought him, and is 15, I wouldn't be able to get him approved either, right?

    I know registration isn't "everything", but as a new breeder with hopes to create a TB sporthorse program over the years, I want to get started on the right foot, and getting approvals for foals (in my mind) is certainly a good way to start.

    Hm. Ok. Well, I'll still take the kids from this year to the inspection as white papers would certainly be better then nothing at all, and I would love to see how my JC mare will do, but what a bummer that I can't hope for more then that for the foals of the registered but not approved stallion.

    Thank you all for being so helpful
    -Jessica



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jul. 5, 2002
    Location
    FL
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    8,249

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cyriz's mom View Post
    If the stallion is not in Book I (fully approved) then both foals are only eligible for a Certificate of Pedigree (white papers) and NOT full registration.

    There are only 3 or 4 TB stallions in Book I. The list of all the stallions are on their website...www.rhpsi.com.

    As an SO, it is very frustrating to me when MO aren't fully informed of the stallion's status. I was at an inspection 2 years and there was a VERY Pissed Off (and IMO rightly so) MO who found out at the inspection that the stallion wasn't approved.
    I just looked at the website. You would think that with this sort of situation they would have in huge red letters that the offspring from the stallions in Book II cannot be fully registered. IMO this is badly handled and if I was a Book I stallion owner or a mare owner, I would not be happy with the way the website presents the stallion roster. Very misleading, especially for someone new to breeding.



  11. #11
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    Aug. 23, 2002
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    Prospect, ME
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Home Again Farm View Post
    I just looked at the website. You would think that with this sort of situation they would have in huge red letters that the offspring from the stallions in Book II cannot be fully registered. IMO this is badly handled and if I was a Book I stallion owner or a mare owner, I would not be happy with the way the website presents the stallion roster. Very misleading, especially for someone new to breeding.
    That is mostly where my confusion came from - the website isn't very clear.

    So here's a question: If my JC mare is eligible for the MMB (based on score, with neither parent approved by the RPSI), but her filly is only eligible for white papers because her JC sire is registered but not approved because he was never inspected, why would I take the filly now as opposed to waiting for her to be 3 or 4 and JC registered? Wouldn't she be eligible for the MMB at that point? Or would she still only be eligible for white papers because her dam was approved and her sire was not?

    I'll call them today.
    -Jessica



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan. 21, 2003
    Location
    Charles Town, WV
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    Default

    If the foal by the JC registered (but not approved) TB Stallion and out of the JC registered TB mare is a filly, you would be better off presenting her as a 3yo for breeding approval.

    BUT, why do you want to present full TB's for RPSI papers? Maybe RPSI will give them papers - IF the stallion is fully approved Book I, but most WB registries will not give full WB foal papers to full TB foals. They WILL give breeding approval to mares and stallions that meet their criteria.

    If your aim is to raise full TB sporthorses, why do you want WB papers for them?
    Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
    Now apparently completely invisible!



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Mar. 12, 2006
    Location
    Western South Dakota
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    2,401

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki View Post
    If the foal by the JC registered (but not approved) TB Stallion and out of the JC registered TB mare is a filly, you would be better off presenting her as a 3yo for breeding approval.

    BUT, why do you want to present full TB's for RPSI papers? Maybe RPSI will give them papers - IF the stallion is fully approved Book I, but most WB registries will not give full WB foal papers to full TB foals. They WILL give breeding approval to mares and stallions that meet their criteria.

    If your aim is to raise full TB sporthorses, why do you want WB papers for them?
    I was wondering the same thing. Why not JC register them as babies, or PHR for the foal from the unregistered mare, so the pedigree is "documented". Then worry about "breeding approval" when they are adults.

    RPSI is great to work with, but it is a "Warmblood" registry.



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Sep. 29, 2007
    Location
    Northern CA
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    1,616

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cyriz's mom View Post
    The only registries the stallion might be approved by are the AWS or AWR.

    And just to be clear, AWS isn't much different that RPSI - they don't give full registration to Tbred mares (they can be nominated, not registered), nor will they give Elite status to a mare with undocumented pedigree. Getting breeding approval requires inspection scores above 74% or performance (3rd level or above or the equivalent in jumping or eventing), and you still aren't given elite status without the pedigree to earn it.

    For a Tbred sport horse program, I think PHR and Jockey Club are probably the more supportive registries - and if your horses are performing, people will be interested! The Tbred is still a great foundation for the sports, especially jumping and eventing!
    www.MysticOakRanch.com Friesian/Warmblood Crosses, the Ultimate Sporthorse
    Director, WTF Registry



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Sep. 15, 2005
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    near historic Gettysburg PA
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    Default

    After reading this thread, if they were mine i would register PHR ( if the sire is even nominated with them)and not worry about the rest... I just hope in your case , that the stallion owner was honest and up front with you and did not mislead u to get you to breed...it happens alot with RPSI
    "It's not how good you ride, It's how good your horse covers for you." -Kristan
    Magic Rose Farm- home of Beste Gold & Hot Shot
    Beste Gold & Offspring on Facebook
    Magic Rose Farm Warmbloods on FB



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Feb. 23, 1999
    Location
    Cypress, near Houston, Texas
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    8,389

    Default

    If the JC registered mare was live covered by a JC registered TB stallion, then there is NO POINT in taking the foal to RPSI. Get her JC papers, then wait till the filly is three years old and present her to RPSI for mare breeding approval - but only IF you plan to breed her to an approved WARMBLOOD stallion. If your plan is sporthorse pure TBs, then stick with Jockey Club and market to sporthorse people.

    And I'd take the filly out of the unpapered mare to PHR for registration.


    Quote Originally Posted by MagicRoseFarm View Post
    After reading this thread, if they were mine i would register PHR ( if the sire is even nominated with them)and not worry about the rest... I just hope in your case , that the stallion owner was honest and up front with you and did not mislead u to get you to breed...it happens alot with RPSI
    Visit Sonesta Farms website at www.sonestafarms.com or our FaceBook page at www.facebook.com/sonestafarms. Also showing & breeding Cavalier King Charles Spaniels.



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Aug. 23, 2002
    Location
    Prospect, ME
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    Default

    Thank you all for weighing in!!!!
    I think I will take my unpapered mare and her baby, and leave the JC filly home until she's older.
    My thought process behind wanting to take my TBs to the RPSI inspection is that, down the road, I may want to add something other then TB blood, and I didn't want to "burn any bridges" before I needed to use them, in the case of breeding my TB mare to an approved WB stallion, for instance. BUT now that you've all explained to me that I can take them later in life, I'll do that if the need arises

    It is frustrating, at least to me, that there is no registry that focuses on inspecting TB sporthorses. It would be lovely to have some sort of organization focused on them, instead of groups that started out being for TBs, and now accept anything... And I think that the inspection process and resulting approvals are helpful to breeders.

    Again, thank you all!
    -Jessica



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