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  1. #1
    Join Date
    May. 10, 2009
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    WA
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    87

    Default Hoof crack...HKH?

    I know there are VERY knowledgeable experienced professionals on here in fact I am in awe of most of you, but also know this forum can get nasty, against all my better judgement here it goes...


    My gelding has a crack that has been exceedingly hard to grow out. I have been trying to relieve the pressure from the walls in order to prevent it from continuing. I have only been trimming for a year and learn more and more every day (so be nice please ... ). My old farrier that said he knew what he was doing, didn't, and has lamed more horses than I can count. He was not doing him ANY good and is (I believe) the cause of this crack. I had to start trimming out of necessity but it has developed into a passion. He had it for a year with my old farrier doing his feet and now for another year with me trying to get a handle on it. I have only really gotten aggressive about this crack in the last 3 months though.

    I can't figure this crack out and it's driving me crazy and keeping me up at night. Not matter what I try so far it keeps cracking.

    We have a real shortage of "good" farriers here and the one the vet recommends is not taking any new clients.

    I know I am taking a huge risk posting pics here and do not wish to have my trim critiqued, nor do I wish to get a diagnosis, I am just wondering from all the farriers and barefooters if this were your horse how would you handle this crack?

    Not looking for trimming advise or help just wondering... what would you do?

    The more ideas the better.

    I'm really interested in what the traditional farriers would do for this...epoxy?

    We only ride inside in sand footing and he lives out on soft grass, and hard dirt. He is out on pasture all night so the sugars are low, and gets 4 cups molasses free beet pulp, 2 cups whole oats and 1 oz 12:12 mineral w selenium once a day. Our climate is mostly wet and muddy but they do have areas to get out of the mud.

    He is a very athletic hyperactive boy too!

    It has gotten smaller but so has the whole hoof capsule.

    Could this be HKH???

    Thanks for looking.



    http://i438.photobucket.com/albums/q...y/100_2682.jpg

    http://i438.photobucket.com/albums/q...y/100_2676.jpg

    http://i438.photobucket.com/albums/q...y/100_2686.jpg
    In my opinion, a horse is the animal to have. Eleven-hundred pounds of raw muscle, power, grace, and sweat between your legs - it's something you just can't get from a pet hamster. ~Author Unknown



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar. 24, 2008
    Posts
    1,833

    Default HKH?

    Let me be the first to ask.



  3. #3
    Join Date
    May. 10, 2009
    Location
    WA
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    87

    Default

    http://appliedequinepodiatry.org/Tex...rn_article.pdf

    Or you can google "hkh in horses" that brings up more but, K.C. I think started the research and has the most informative article.
    In my opinion, a horse is the animal to have. Eleven-hundred pounds of raw muscle, power, grace, and sweat between your legs - it's something you just can't get from a pet hamster. ~Author Unknown



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar. 24, 2008
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    Default

    jm wouldn't it have been easier simply to spell out three words of the acronym



  5. #5
    Join Date
    May. 10, 2009
    Location
    WA
    Posts
    87

    Default

    OK

    Hyper-Keratinized Horn

    ~ Sorry

    I really would like to know what the farriers on here think I don't have access to anywhere near the caliber of farriers that post on this forum. Not what you think about my trim (I'm still learning) what you would do about the crack please.

    I'm sure there are things I've never even heard of I could be trying.

    I have put topicals in there thinking it was fungal but that hasn't really done any good either.
    In my opinion, a horse is the animal to have. Eleven-hundred pounds of raw muscle, power, grace, and sweat between your legs - it's something you just can't get from a pet hamster. ~Author Unknown



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov. 9, 2005
    Location
    uk
    Posts
    15,278

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jokersmama View Post
    I know there are VERY knowledgeable experienced professionals on here in fact I am in awe of most of you, but also know this forum can get nasty, against all my better judgement here it goes...


    My gelding has a crack that has been exceedingly hard to grow out. I have been trying to relieve the pressure from the walls in order to prevent it from continuing. I have only been trimming for a year and learn more and more every day (so be nice please ... ). My old farrier that said he knew what he was doing, didn't, and has lamed more horses than I can count. He was not doing him ANY good and is (I believe) the cause of this crack. I had to start trimming out of necessity but it has developed into a passion. He had it for a year with my old farrier doing his feet and now for another year with me trying to get a handle on it. I have only really gotten aggressive about this crack in the last 3 months though.

    I can't figure this crack out and it's driving me crazy and keeping me up at night. Not matter what I try so far it keeps cracking.

    We have a real shortage of "good" farriers here and the one the vet recommends is not taking any new clients.

    I know I am taking a huge risk posting pics here and do not wish to have my trim critiqued, nor do I wish to get a diagnosis, I am just wondering from all the farriers and barefooters if this were your horse how would you handle this crack?

    Not looking for trimming advise or help just wondering... what would you do?

    The more ideas the better.

    I'm really interested in what the traditional farriers would do for this...epoxy?

    We only ride inside in sand footing and he lives out on soft grass, and hard dirt. He is out on pasture all night so the sugars are low, and gets 4 cups molasses free beet pulp, 2 cups whole oats and 1 oz 12:12 mineral w selenium once a day. Our climate is mostly wet and muddy but they do have areas to get out of the mud.

    He is a very athletic hyperactive boy too!

    It has gotten smaller but so has the whole hoof capsule.

    Could this be HKH???

    Thanks for looking.



    http://i438.photobucket.com/albums/q...y/100_2682.jpg

    http://i438.photobucket.com/albums/q...y/100_2676.jpg

    http://i438.photobucket.com/albums/q...y/100_2686.jpg

    thats whats deemed as a sandcrack over here you need a qualilfied farrier asap
    go here www.hosehoes.com as you might need staples and a shoe before it goes upwards and then you more extensive work done with vets and farriers



  7. #7
    Join Date
    May. 10, 2009
    Location
    WA
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    Default

    It's much easier to put a nice finish on a nice foot. I wish I had that pretty hoof to start out with.

    I don't really like how his trim turned out either I am trying to fix his crack and his forward running hoof though. The old farrier always left the heels and only cut off his toes and never ever addressed flare. His heels were really far forward and so were his toes they actually look better believe it or not.

    Yes I think the rings are from him going back out on grass after spending winter on hay.
    In my opinion, a horse is the animal to have. Eleven-hundred pounds of raw muscle, power, grace, and sweat between your legs - it's something you just can't get from a pet hamster. ~Author Unknown



  8. #8
    Join Date
    May. 10, 2009
    Location
    WA
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    87

    Default

    LOL... hosehoes.com link appears broken
    Is it www.horseshoes.com?
    In my opinion, a horse is the animal to have. Eleven-hundred pounds of raw muscle, power, grace, and sweat between your legs - it's something you just can't get from a pet hamster. ~Author Unknown



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov. 22, 2007
    Location
    Port Charlotte, FL
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    3,447

    Default

    I see about a half dozen of these every year. In my experience, it is very likely that you have anaerobic organisms eating away the wall/laminar connection in the area under the crack. Thus the wall cannot grow out past that area because the connection is being eaten away from underneath. Until you resect all the horn in the area of the crack and expose the internal extremities of the crack to air, it is not likely that mechanical or chemical treatment alone is going to solve the probem.

    A horn resection ought to be done with the correct tools by the hands of an experienced practitioner. In addition, the resection may involve just the area under the crack, or it may turn out to encompass a much larger area. You don't know until you get in there and start "excavating."

    If the resection only turns out to be only a centimeter or two wide, then it's no big deal to just leave it at that and roll the edges of the horn to prevent chipping in the area of the resection. If the resection covers a larger area, or you plan to work the horse under saddle while the resection grows out, then you will need to put a shoe on the foot to protect and support the sole and wall in the area of the resection.

    My tool of choice for this kind of resection is GE half round nippers. In the wrong hands, these are very dangerous. In skilled hands, a toe crack resection with half round nippers is a 2 minute job. Then you're left with a 1/2" groove in the wall where the crack used to be (assuming that the anaerobes haven't eaten much horn away under the crack). A squirt of Durasole in the groove once a week and regular rolled toe trimming is about all it takes after that to grow out a well connected toe. Whether or not the resection needs the protection of a shoe depends on the horse's work regiment and how much of the hoof is comprimized by the resection.



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov. 22, 2007
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    Port Charlotte, FL
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jokersmama View Post
    LOL... hosehoes.com link appears broken
    Is it www.horseshoes.com?
    Yes. That "hose hoes" adult content site was shut down a long time ago.



  11. #11
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    Nov. 9, 2005
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    uk
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jokersmama View Post
    LOL... hosehoes.com link appears broken
    Is it www.horseshoes.com?
    gald you saw the funny side whoops www.horseshoes.com



  12. #12
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    Nov. 22, 2007
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    Port Charlotte, FL
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Auventera Two View Post
    You can't do that when the finish looks like that. This is an example of how I finish a foot: http://www.hphoofcare.com/C3.jpg because I find that it dramatically improves hoof health and overall structure over time.
    Nice trim.

    Here's some money in your pocket . . . if you knock the mud off with a wire brush first, you'll get 10 more trims out of the finish side of your rasp.



  13. #13
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    Nov. 22, 2007
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    Port Charlotte, FL
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auventera Two View Post
    Tom - you seriously would recommend a resection on this horse?
    If the crack didn't respond to mechanical and chemical treatment, yes. OTOH, I don't recommend a resection by inexperienced hands.

    I've fixed cracks just by getting the pressure off them and fixing the trim.
    Doesn't always solve the problem. Some cracks get it and some don't. If I don't get progress in 2 or 3 cycles, I explore the crack to see what's under it. IME, environmental moisture, temperature, and horn growth rates play a role in the anaerobic situation. Providing mechanical relief seems to work well for me on horses that live in soil that is well drained and where the horses get a lot of exercise to promote growth. OTOH, a pasture potato might not move around enough to have the circulation required to grow horn faster than the anaerobes can digest it.

    I can't believe the level of imbalance that some farriers just let grow and grow.
    They get paid. If a horse owner can't differentiate between a healthy foot and an unhealthy foot, then the hired help just needs to go through the motions.


    I trimmed one today......right hind foot, medial wall about 1/2" taller than lateral wall. Heel bulb jammed up, coronary band jammed up. Ton of flare on the medial wall. In one trim it was fixed, but that was a quarter crack begging to happen.
    I've never seen a medial quarter crack.



  14. #14
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    May. 10, 2009
    Location
    WA
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    Thank you everyone!

    So far so good I haven't been attacked nearly as bad as I thought

    And thank you for sharing your pics too!

    A resection huh? I was wondering about that the wall is not connected to anything behind there.

    Don't worry I'm not going to go out and try anything on my horses hooves like that myself! I would definitely be calling the vet or finding a farrier. Man I hate trying to find one I can trust it's like finding a new M.D.
    In my opinion, a horse is the animal to have. Eleven-hundred pounds of raw muscle, power, grace, and sweat between your legs - it's something you just can't get from a pet hamster. ~Author Unknown



  15. #15
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    Mar. 24, 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokersmama View Post

    Hyper-Keratinized Horn
    Thanks.

    Not what you think about my trim (I'm still learning) what you would do about the crack please.
    Well those are two sides of the same coin aren't they? Start by balancing the foot. Do you think it looks balanced? The cracking side is shorter than the other side. What are yu doing to achieve balance as you trim? And I would seriously look into what is going on with those hoof rings that started halfway down but no sign of them before that.



  16. #16
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    Nov. 5, 2007
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    Pennsylvania
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    Is hard to tell without actually seeing it but I'd agree with Tom about exploring the possibility of anaerobic pathogens.

    Regardless of whether or not they exist, I would burn the top of that crack with a sandcrack iron. That will stop it guaranteed.

    Also, please get away from that toe dubbing. Learn to put a 45 degree radius on your hoofwall. That dubbing is not helping the situation at all.
    George



  17. #17
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    Mar. 24, 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by JHUshoer20 View Post
    Also, please get away from that toe dubbing. Learn to put a 45 degree radius on your hoofwall. That dubbing is not helping the situation at all.
    George
    I wondered about that. It does seem really excessive.



  18. #18
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    Feb. 28, 2001
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    The excessive roll actually works quite well in certain circumstances.

    This one may not be as refined as a more experienced trimmer but the concept is one I have had good results using.



  19. #19
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    Feb. 18, 2006
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    east central Illinois and working north to the 'burbs
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auventera Two View Post
    Tom - you seriously would recommend a resection on this horse? Hmm. Wow. That would be the last thing I'd want to do.
    When you have more experience perhaps you'll feel differently.

    That crack needs to be fully debrided. I'd bet a dollar against a donut hole that the damage is greater than what it appears to be and when the area is debrided there will be a much larger area affected. In addition to any potential pathogens at work, the dirt/debris in the crack acts as a splitting maul and keeps the crack going.

    I don't patch these types of cracks because there is too much chance of anaerobic pathogen activity under the patch. I prefer to get the foot in proper balance and shoe it with a bar shoe and side/toe quarter clips. Depending on what I find, I might also amend a Nolan Hoof Plate or the like at a level above the proximal terminus of the crack/debrided area.

    And, I agree with George when he says to learn how to put a proper bevel on the foot and forgo the silliness promulgated by certain elements of the Barefoot Brigade regarding the way to correctly finish the bottom edge of the wall.



  20. #20
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    Feb. 28, 2001
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Burten View Post
    And, I agree with George when he says to learn how to put a proper bevel on the foot and forgo the silliness promulgated by certain elements of the Barefoot Brigade regarding the way to correctly finish the bottom edge of the wall.

    Rick why do you and others have to put it this way?

    I am really curious.

    I am only speaking from my experience and I am certain there is more than 1 road to Rome...

    BUT *I* have had very good results with forward toes using an bigger roll.

    I have done a normal bevel and done a more excessive roll. Just me personally on my horses, the bigger roll had faster results.

    I have had a very deep crack-actually 2 and both eventually grew out using the heavier roll with no additional treatment...one even looked very similar to this one at the sole level-even worse actually.

    I am not just quoting barefoot propaganda (as many accuse folks of) but seriously sharing something I have done first hand.

    I am just curious why it must be poo-ed if there is evidence it works-granted you can argue you have not SEEN my hooves and that is fair enough-but just sharing a little mutual trust and respect (and I do mean that-no sarcasm)-taking my word at its face value (I have nothing to gain or lose by lying)-it really worked very well (and more than once).

    I am not even arguing a regular bevel is wrong-just saying another way can also work with no harm (when done properly).

    I am not picking a fight with you or anyone-just trying to understand.



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