[BSFKimbees]

Okay, he's changed colors WAY too much so I am just going to list them... I'm trying to market him accurately but he keeps changing!!! Plus, I'm thinking I need to do a color change on his papers as he's listed as Black... Ugh!

Born/Weanling - JET Black
Foal - Black w/ Dun points (ears, eyes, around legs)
First Winter - Blackish Brown - Looked like an Angus calf!
Spring/Yearling - Almost a dark Dappled Buckskin??? Some people said Smokey Buckskin...
Yearling Winter - Looked like a Black Bay
Spring/2 yr old - Shed out Darker not nearly as many dun points, more like a Chocolate Brown.
Winter/2.5 yr old- Again, Blackish Brown (not really Bay)

*** Currently at just 3 he is shedding out a Dark Chocolate again, with some dun points (eyes, nose, under tail). I mean it's really pretty but I have NO clue what to call him (and was honestly hoping for that buckskin again). Throughout all of this his mane/tail has stayed a bit lighter brown than the darkest parts of his body (though he now has no mane as it's now pulled for showing this year).

He is out of a Dun Paint mare, by a Black Welsh. This was her only foal to date and the Stallion was gelded so this was also his only foal.

I am clueless as I'm not used to QH/Paint coloring, nor the Welsh M/P for that matter. The whole Buckskin year REALLY through me off!!!

SORRY, the pictures were taken before he finished shedding out (taken about 3 1/2 weeks ago). As mentioned, he IS shedding out like a Chocolate color with dun points.

What would YOU call him?

[JB]

By "dun" for the mare, do you mean bay dun or red dun? Do you have a picture? What about the stallion - was he REALLY black, or could he have been smoky black?

By "dun points" on the horse in question, do you mean they are lighter?

Without knowing anything else, he looks like a dark seal brown.

[sniplover]

Or are you using Dun to indicate 'creme carrying bay (aka buckskin)' as the welsh breeders do? I see you mentioned hoping he was buckskin, which wouldn't be produced by true Dun. I also think he looks dark seal brown right now... only way to know for sure is test, but with a gelding it's a bit more of a moot point.

[BSFKimbees]

Okay, the Dam is plain old Dun with a dorsal stripe. Sire is a true black (I own him now, had him gelded).

I did not breed this pony, I took him in as a weanling (later bought his Sire) and he just happens to have some "stuff"... Love him to death.

I'm leaning to a Seal Brown as well. Is this often produced with a Dun and a Black? I know NOTHING about color genetics (as you can probably tell). I have produced nothing but Bay's and Chestnut's, occasionally a Gray and a Black.

Thanks!

[JB]

Still need a picture of the dam "plain ol dun with a dorsal stripe" could be a light bay with strong countershading.

Brown is recessive to bay, so the dam might have been bay dun (and not passed the dun on), or brown dun (and not passed dun on) and passed the brown gene on. If she's really bay, the brown will hide.

The black stallion isn't a factor, assuming he's really E?aa.

[BSFKimbees]

Called her owner, she doesn't know exactly what she is and can't send me any photos. Nice huh?

I'll try to get over there in the AM and take one. She's not a Red Dun, that much I know, she's rather typical of MOST Dun's that I've seen, like a light golden brown (THE COLOR OF HOMADE CHOCOLATE CHIP COOKIES)...

Wish I knew more. Her APHA papers just say Dun, just looked them up online.

Photo is of Sire, will get Dam tomorrow hopefully.

[Daydream Believer]

Looks like a brown or maybe a smokey black to me...definitely not a dun. Now if the stallion was a buckskin (cream dilute) and not a dun (totally different color), than he could be a smokey black.

[Juniberry]

I may be making this too simple and if so please do tell me. All black foals I have ever looked after or seen turn some very strange colours from a couple of months old and take up to 2 years to form their proper grown up coat. This normally starts by developing a fluffy almost ginger coat which then gradually reveils the black undeneath. Usually the first places to change are round the eyes and nose. I could easily describe a weanling as being golden almost dun like as the black true coat comes through. The photos look like a black coat which having been bleeched in the sun as taken a slight bronze hew to it. My black horse can turn a bit ginger in winter sun if we get several days of it.
As I said I may be making a complicated colour question way to simple and be missing the details

[JB]

I may be making this too simple and if so please do tell me. All black foals I have ever looked after or seen turn some very strange colours from a couple of months old and take up to 2 years to form their proper grown up coat. This normally starts by developing a fluffy almost ginger coat which then gradually reveils the black undeneath. Usually the first places to change are round the eyes and nose. I could easily describe a weanling as being golden almost dun like as the black true coat comes through. The photos look like a black coat which having been bleeched in the sun as taken a slight bronze hew to it. My black horse can turn a bit ginger in winter sun if we get several days of it.

As I said I may be making a complicated colour question way to simple and be missing the details

Color question, complicated? Nawwww!

Black horses are generally born a mousy color - grayish or brownish or a little mix, but "mousy" best describes it. I haven't really seen it take 2 years for it to become apparent they are really black - usually a first foal shed, or the yearling Spring shed at the latest, shows the true black color. The foal coat bleaches easily though, so they can look golden indeed before shedding to reveal a black coat. But since many foals shed right in the heat of Summer, they can easily start bleaching again pretty quickly.

There is nothing hard and fast when it comes to how long it takes a horse to settle into his adult color. IME the black-based colors do that sooner than the reds, but any given situation could be the reverse.

[WBLover]

For a sale ad, I'd just say "brown".

[BSFKimbees]

I'd say BROWN too... lol. He's off again. I swear, I am going to clip him next Spring and put a sheet on him all Summer!!!

He is almost completely shed out now (at just 3) and he's a consistent dark Chocolate (and I mean Dark, not black as I have his Sire and he is jet BLACK right now). Chocolate legs, chocolate body - definately not a bay. Closer you get to his skin the darker it is.

He has bright gold around his eyes, nose, tail area and wherever his coat is VERY short (and quite possibly compromised by fluid secretions?). He has black skin everywhere as he's almost completely solid other than a slight white on his right rear (which has a 1/2 light hoof).

Ugh, I am a WB breeder so I don't get these funky colors...

Oh, and I am VERY embarrassed to say that his Dam is actually a buckskin, not Dun. Does this make a difference as to what he COULD be? Will I EVER know for sure?

Since he's a gelding, I suppose it really doesn't matter anyway, but thank you everyone for replying.

Quite frankly I secretly hope he doesn't sell as he is very much so the best guy I have EVER brought along for the Hunters... He just gets it. May keep my odd little guy for a while and take him on as MY personal pony - Hey, Karen O'Connor did it! Always wanted one as a kid so WHY NOT!

[RiddleMeThis]

Yes it does make a WORLD of difference that the dam is buckskin and not dun. It sounds like your horse is probably a smoky black to me. I would still LOVE to see pictures though.

ETA:Saw pictures (missed them the first time through as they did not load) and yes I think he is either a dark buckskin or a smoky black.

[Ride4Life]

I would say smokey black. Looks like the best way to tell is to look at his eyes. If his eyes are a shade lighter than the normal brown horse eye color; more like an amber then he probably carries the creme gene and is smokey black.

http://www.horsecolor.com/dilutions/...smokyblack.htm

[Blue Moon]

If he was born black, then he IS black, genetically speaking. Not bay, not brown, not any kind of buckskin or dun, or anything else. None of those things are born looking black.

Blacks are terribly prone to sunbleaching and fading and all of that. It can be remarkable. They can end up looking like any number of things (I've seen Friesians that looked bay after a summer on pasture) but they are still black.

The only thing a black horse can be hiding is a cream gene, which would make him a smoky black. But if he's a gelding, it hardly matters one way or the other. The only reason you'd care is if he were a stallion prospect. Or if you were just dying of curiosity. The test for the cream gene is only $25.

[JB]

But once the Winter coat is shed, that gives you a really good indication or what their color really is - hasn't had a chance to bleach yet.

He sounds like either dark sooty buckskin, or smoky black. Maybe smoky brown, hard to say.

[BSFKimbees]

Can ya tell, I AM dying of curiosity... As mentioned, I don't get these colors with what I produce. I find it to be rather neat.

My Farrier today said he's Grulla... OMG no he isn't. Just goes to show how some people can easily mistake and register the wrong color, such as his Dam was registered incorrectly. He did kind of tilt his head when he said it though.

I am going to go with the majority (after I stated the mare's true color) that say smoky black. And thnx for the link Ride4life... Interesting as his eyes are a very pretty Amber color.

Though when it all comes down to it, "color ain't gonna sell him"... And obviously he's not going to reproduce.

I'm very happy I started this thread and thank everyone for responding!

HAPPY SUMMER!