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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb. 16, 2006
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    718

    Default Spin-off of Dominate horses - laying them down

    A couple of people I talk to tell me how wonderful their horses are. One is a trainer and she "lays down" her horses quite frequently. She feels that is the way that most horses need to be shown who is boss. She will frequently get a new one in and lay it down. Most of these are drafts - Clydes etc...

    Now another gal has a mini (2)and she flips him down quite often, to keep him in his place. I'm talking several times a week. While the little bugger can be still a handful when he wants to be, I don't see this helping any.

    Now I have two in my barn. Most of the time they are respectful, - in hand etc..., but I've had alot of battles with them. The one was not halter broke until age 6. The otehr one was a run away at 18mon, 17h bully that did know his own strength. There one minute gone the next POOF. Both these horses were difficult to train, but we are there. They have turned into respetable citizens for the most part. Under saddle etc...can be very testing at times.

    But I am wondering would it have been helpful to flip them vs. the possibility of injuring them. Does it really do any good? Is this that common? Just so you know I don't agree with it, but I am curious at what other do.

    K
    The View from Here



  2. #2
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    Dec. 4, 2002
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    Dungeon of the Ivory Tower
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    Default

    Considering when they are down they are at their most vulnerable, I can understand the concept, but I personally don't agree with the approach. I want my horse to respect my space, but I also want him to know that he can trust me.
    www.specialhorses.org
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  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr. 10, 2006
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    7,395

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RU2U View Post
    A couple of people I talk to tell me how wonderful their horses are. One is a trainer and she "lays down" her horses quite frequently. She feels that is the way that most horses need to be shown who is boss. She will frequently get a new one in and lay it down. Most of these are drafts - Clydes etc...

    Now another gal has a mini (2)and she flips him down quite often, to keep him in his place. I'm talking several times a week. While the little bugger can be still a handful when he wants to be, I don't see this helping any.

    Now I have two in my barn. Most of the time they are respectful, - in hand etc..., but I've had alot of battles with them. The one was not halter broke until age 6. The otehr one was a run away at 18mon, 17h bully that did know his own strength. There one minute gone the next POOF. Both these horses were difficult to train, but we are there. They have turned into respetable citizens for the most part. Under saddle etc...can be very testing at times.

    But I am wondering would it have been helpful to flip them vs. the possibility of injuring them. Does it really do any good? Is this that common? Just so you know I don't agree with it, but I am curious at what other do.

    K
    "Flips" him down? What do you mean? Wait till these horses start "flipping" or "laying down" with people on them.

    Seriously why do people make horse training so complicated?
    We couldn't all be cowboys, so some of us are clowns.



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov. 2, 2006
    Posts
    2,095

    Default

    I think it is dangerous and should only be used in a very last ditch effort by experienced handlers in rare situations. There is no need to do this on a routine basis and there is a great deal of risk of injury when doing this, both to the handlers and to the horse.

    I saw it done once on a ranch in WY that I worked. The mare was incredibly cinch sour- she would flip herself over if it was done too tight too quick. The head wrangler and another guy flipped her over and poured water down her nose, it was aweful to watch. They said basically that the premise behind it was that the horse would think she was drowning, she would submit and then they let her get up. Odd thing about it was after they did that I was the only one that rode her.

    I can't say that it worked or didn't work, but it was taumatic, excessive and dangerous.



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar. 4, 2007
    Location
    Western Washington
    Posts
    3,092

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gloriginger View Post
    I think it is dangerous and should only be used in a very last ditch effort by experienced handlers in rare situations. There is no need to do this on a routine basis and there is a great deal of risk of injury when doing this, both to the handlers and to the horse.
    I agree on all points, especially the rarity and danger of it.



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep. 20, 2005
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    3,504

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    I'm not a fan. It just seems unnecessary to me. Any trainer caught trying to lay one of my horses down would quickly find him or herself with one less client.
    "Are you yawning? You don't ride well enough to yawn. I can yawn, because I ride better than you. Meredith Michael Beerbaum can yawn. But you? Not so much..."
    -George Morris



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan. 4, 2007
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    TX
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    45,865

    Default

    When I was a teenager, our riding school had a little mare that, every so many months, got ring sour and would stop and rear at the gate with beginners.

    It was standard for such rearers to flip them over and then ride them hard by someone experienced.

    Well, it seemed to work, but with what I know today, I would think that if we had just ridden her properly, as we did after the flipping, she would have responded exactly the same, decided that after all, she was supposed to be patient with beginners and not act up.

    I think that many that lay a horse down and then retrain it past it's problems is assuming too much, if they think the horses will understand laying down with having done xyz several minutes or hours or days before and is now crying uncle while down and promises not to repeat XYZ ever again.

    I have heard some very wild stories about this, the latest one about laying horses down and beating them with shovels.

    I have trained horses to lay down, some as part of our standard series of tricks, that is stretch, bow, knee, lay down, sit up and a rider gets on and stand up lifting the rider along.
    Another way is teaching a horse to lay down with a rope on one leg and turning the head back, on a sandy incline, where the horse doesn't fall, just lays down gently and sits there, like this broodmare, that was too sore to hold feet up to be trimmed, so we asked her to lay down for us and she did, you can see there was no struggle on the sand around her:

    http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...g?t=1241825191

    Any of those "tricks" would also get a horse to "give" and be submissive, if you want to see your relationship with your horses primarily as such and it doesn't involve risk to anyone, handler or horse.



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Apr. 21, 2000
    Location
    Upperco, MD
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    479

    Default

    I think the process of laying down a horse is usually done by ignorant and/or inexperienced but well meaning people that have no other skills to train a horse. I also believe it's a very traumatic experience for the horse and may well cause irreparable psychological damage and would avoid it if at all possible. JMHO.



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov. 9, 2005
    Location
    uk
    Posts
    15,296

    Default

    [QUOTE=RU2U;4079546]A couple of people I talk to tell me how wonderful their horses are. One is a trainer and she "lays down" her horses quite frequently. She feels that is the way that most horses need to be shown who is boss. She will frequently get a new one in and lay it down. Most of these are drafts - Clydes etc...

    Now another gal has a mini (2)and she flips him down quite often, to keep him in his place. I'm talking several times a week. While the little bugger can be still a handful when he wants to be, I don't see this helping any.

    Now I have two in my barn. Most of the time they are respectful, - in hand etc..., but I've had alot of battles with them. The one was not halter broke until age 6. The otehr one was a run away at 18mon, 17h bully that did know his own strength. There one minute gone the next POOF. Both these horses were difficult to train, but we are there. They have turned into respetable citizens for the most part. Under saddle etc...can be very testing at times.


    people are such cranks at times offering advice to novices about laying down horses is good training etc etc
    yeah in a circus maybe but not for general usage of horses mate you teach your horse to lay down and one day it will lay when you dont expect him to and you or people that ride might just be in the way and they all end up laying -- and dead



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug. 7, 2005
    Location
    Georgia
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    2,575

    Default

    I think this is used by people who lack the skills and instincts to Properly train a horse.
    You know why cowboys don't like Appaloosas?" - Answer: Because to train a horse, you have to be smarter than it is.



  11. #11
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    Mar. 16, 2003
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    Wet and Windy Washington
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    Default

    This guy seems to think it will work: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyNJXJntGrQ

    But each to their own
    I have horse to sell to you. Horse good for riding. Can pull cart. Horse good size. Eats carrots and apples. Likes attention. Move head to music. No like opera! You like you buy.



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb. 6, 2000
    Location
    MA
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    13,169

    Default

    There's considerable difference between laying a horse down and flipping one over.

    There is no good reason for the latter.

    there may be a reason for the former, but certainly not as a regular feature of a training program...
    "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

    ...just settin' on the Group W bench.



  13. #13
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    Nov. 9, 2005
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    uk
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    Default

    thats the tap-- and i know how its used and what it does and to be honest i wouldnt use it unless i really had no other choice-- put it this way when people buy elasticated girths and wnder why the hors egets girth galds or rubs or falls over or losses balance thats becuase its done up so tight as they tend to tighten it till it cant go no more forgetting its elastic
    but has that same effect before the effect of the so called tap thus horse gets touchy touchy aroun the body area -- or sensitive horse nothing to do with lymp or whatever just the ruddy girth being done up to tight
    but all one has to do is to turn the horses head and push and i will tell you right now the horse will fall

    so not to b to the tap-- but in wrong hands can be harmful but can also be a tool in the tool kit that never comes out if nesscary

    but also like said some are on the verge - of laying ahorse down becuase of lack of knowledge on how to fit a saddle and do up a girth properly



  14. #14
    Join Date
    May. 4, 2003
    Location
    Canada
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    16,257

    Default

    Oh good grief - Endospink thinks he is on to something and can make a pile of money selling tapes, etc.

    Gently laying a horse down as an extension of trust, training, etc. can be done by an experienced horseman, but this guy - I saw some of his earlier work and it is quite ignorant - he never gave the poor little horse a chance before he started doing the stunts on her.

    There are simply not that many rogue horses out there that need it.



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jun. 21, 2004
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    4,261

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    I know of a person that did it. She the would kneel on the neck and tie 3 legs in the roundpen. I saw one horse stand up and start tryn to run... damn horse ran head first into the fence. I swore she broke her neck This lady in Fburg VA was very rough
    *^*^*^
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  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jul. 31, 2007
    Posts
    16,610

    Default I know a lot

    And I don't know enough to lay a horse down as a training technique.

    I can't imagine the intended purpose of flipping one over roughly. I suppose if you needed the element of utter surprise for the super street-smart rogue who also practiced the art of ambushing his handlers or riders, you might want to do that.

    My question about using this extreme form of subjugation: How do you know when the point has been made? If the horse remains angry even after being laid down, where to you go from there?

    It seems like a physically and psychologically a very high stakes game, one best played only by the very, very good horsemen. So glad I'm not one who is sent the really incorrigible ones.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Mar. 23, 2009
    Posts
    62

    Default

    In a few weeks my gelding is going off for training with a guy who uses laying down as a last resort with troubled horses.

    He has reached the end of his rope with my family. They fear he will kill me if I continue trying to fix him. The last accident resulted in my having to have both wrist xrayed for breaks on Easter. He was in my care for a year & with a trainer we worked through a lot of his issues. We thought he was fixed enough to return to my sister, who he was bought for. Things went sour & she has decided she is done with him so my family gave him back to me to keep.

    I've learned that his sire is known to throw get with difficult attitudes. He is on 24/7 turnout in a low stress environment, now has a foraged based diet, has had his teeth floated, treated for ulcers/on a preventive now, good worming program, etc, and he's still bad.

    Recently I agreed to let a professional work with him in order to be allowed to keep him, dad technically owns him. We went to see a local trainer that we had been referred to. Refreshingly, this gentleman believes that a lot of behavioral issues come from a horse trying to tell us they hurt. He works closely with a vet who does a lot of chiro/acupuncture/etc work (and this vet is apparently giving classes that two vets I highly respect are currently taking, and the trainer didn't know I knew either vet when he was telling me.) The plan is to look for physical issues first, then regular training. He is very optimistic that my boy won't be difficult to help from what we've discussed about his issues. I got to watch him work with a young horse and was pleased with what I saw.

    He was also very open about laying down a horse if the physical problems are solved and the horse continues to have issues. I was able to see where he does it, a very deep sandy round pen. He gave me a demonstration of how he does it on a horse just out in a field with a halter & a rope, which he puts around the leg to pull it up. The horse willingly came up to us, seemed happy/healthy, and went through it calmly and didn't seemed stressed at all. If his method of doing it was terribly cruel or if he used a lot of abuse, I would have expected this horse to act much differently. He said horses generally fight the first time, but if all goes well it should only happen once or twice. Like I said though, the guy is very optimistic that something is just out of place and causing the discomfort so we may not have even resort to this.

    The trainer has welcomed me to come see him work my horse or any of the other horses any time I wish to. He wants to work with both my horse and I as he feels it's most important to get the horse where I can ride him safely.

    I didn't go looking for a trainer to do this. I've discussed it with several other people that I trust and who know my horse. We've been told by his past trainer and another breeder to take him to the Amish auction Pretty bad when a saddleseat trainer tells an owner to come remove their horse



  18. #18
    Join Date
    Sep. 14, 2005
    Location
    central NJ
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    605

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    I used to work for a rescue that would occasionally get very extreme cases in -- horses that had been seriously screwed up by previous homes -- at both the aggressive and fearful ends of the spectrum.

    When traditional training methods failed with those horses, or the horse was just plain too dangerous, we'd use the TAP and lay them down. It was always a last resort, never the default method for starting an animal. And for some of the horses, it was like hitting the "reboot" button -- when they stood up, they could function like a normal member of horsey society again, and we went about retraining as usual.

    The usual candidates were not young, unhandled horses. They were teenagers or thereabouts who had been made the way they were by other humans, by people trying to train when they had no business doing so.

    I would run screaming from someone that boasted of using the method on EVERY horse. It's an extreme tool that should only be used in extreme cases.
    Member of the Standardbreds with Saddles Clique!
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  19. #19
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    Jun. 23, 2007
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    It's the 'flipping' part that bothers me. I've seen a horse laid down before by a very experienced professional. Can't say whether it worked or not but it was done very gently and the horse actually laid down on its own after one leg was tied up. Anyone who 'flipped' a horse of mine would soon find themselves ejected from my property.



  20. #20
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    Apr. 27, 2006
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    Aiken, SC
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    The guy who started my gelding was extremely good with starting /problem horses and he got a tough horse into the barn to work with.

    He had a lot of experience and the subject of "laying down" came up one day - he said he did it as a last resort as the horse would either improve immediately or become much worse.



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