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  1. #1
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    May. 31, 2004
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    Default Waps breeders, colors?

    Hi all, so I am breeding my Waps (from JG) mare to Mannhatten a warmblood stallion. I'm just wondering if I will get color or not and or if there is a way to know. I don't care either way but, I'm just curious. My filly is by Rolls out of Masquerade and is known as Marcie on the site. Both parents have color but, Rolls has thrown many solids. My mare is spotty.

    I hope Ginny is feeling Ok!! Thanks for you input



  2. #2
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    Default

    It's a roll of the dice. Does Mannhatten carry any markers such as jagged edged socks, roan edges to white markings, dark spots within white markings, bottom lip white, etc.? Those are things I've heard Appaloosa breeders talk about when breeding color to solid as indicators of whether the foal will color or not. It's no guarantee, but apparently certain factors can help.

    Best of luck to you.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    "Life's a bleach and then you dye"
    "Some people walk in the rain, others just get wet." Roger Miller



  3. #3
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    Feb. 18, 2009
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    Default

    Do you have photos of your filly?

    Some colored appaloosas are heterozygous. They have a 50% chance of passing on spots to their offspring. The following patterns are exhibited on heterozygous horses: leopard, blanket, snowflake and varnish roan. A horse that only exhibits appaloosa characteristics may also be heterozygous. (Characteristics being visible sclera, striped hooves, mottled skin.)

    Some appaloosas are homozygous for patterning. They will pass on either a full pattern or characteristics 100% of the time. Fewspot and snowcap appaloosas are considered to be homozygous.
    www.SilverSpringFarm.net
    Breeder of rare, high quality Silver Dapple Paints and Quarter Horses.



  4. #4
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    Sep. 9, 2004
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    Default

    Isn't Mannhatten grey? If so you could get color then lose it if the baby greys out.



  5. #5
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    Default

    It would greatly help to see a picture of your mare, including her feet. Appies can have markers for the pattern, or for the color, or for both. Having just pattern can mean they are solid, but with appy characteristics like striped feet and mottling around the eyes/nose/genitals, and that can be passed on as well. If she's obviously spotted, she's got one of both - pattern and color - and can pass either/or/neither/both.
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  6. #6
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    Mar. 4, 2008
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    Default

    I looked at your filly on the JG Appaloosas website. Very cute girl! I like her.

    Your chance of spotted color is on the low end. Your filly is heterozygous for LP so there is a 50% chance she will throw LP to her foal. She may have one or two copies of PATN but they are the less extensive patterns (smallish blankets, lacy blankets). If Marcie has one copy of PATN and she is definitely heterozygous for LP you would have a 50% probability of having appaloosa characteristics of which half would be characteristics only (no spots or pattern, just sclera, striped hooves, mottling and eventually some roaning) and the other half would be with spots or pattern. So that is a 25% chance of characteristics with no spots/pattern and 25% chance of characteristics and spots/pattern. The other 50% is no characteristics and no spots/pattern because LP is not passed on and that is necessary for PATN to be expressed.

    If the dam (your filly) is carrying more than one PATN then your chances of spots/pattern at birth could go up to as high as 50%.

    If you are breeding to a grey who is heterozygous this does not effect whether or not your foal will be born spotted but if it will remain spotted. I did a similar breeding and estimated that my chances of getting a spotted foal from a heterozygous dam (also bay) and a heterozygous grey (born black) that would not go grey would be only 12.5%. We weren't concerned, this cross was for athletic ability, etc. Anyway, guess what I got in the color department? A completely solid chestnut colt, no spots, no chrome and apparently no grey. What was the probability of that...<1%?!?! www.altamontsporthorses.com/machado.html

    Usually offspring will not express color in a larger pattern than their parents unless there is a cumulative effect (hypothesized) by being homozygous for PATN1. Also, some base colors suppress spots/pattern more. With all things being equal a chestnut foal would have the largest white blanket with spots, a bay less than the chestnut and a black the smallest (black suppresses more than bay for some reason).

    Amount of chrome seems to also effect amount of expression as well as some other suppressing genes which are not yet identified. Sabino foals that are spotted will have a lot of white patterning but the spots tend to be smaller. Those with less chrome (like a small star or no star) may or may not express less white but do seem to have larger sized spots.

    There has also been some talk that fillies may express less white than colts with all other factors being the same.

    Hope this makes sense. We breed Appaloosas and cross with warmbloods as well so I study this a bit but might not explain it very well.
    Last edited by Altamont Sport Horses; May. 5, 2009 at 05:42 PM. Reason: ETA: clarification of a few things
    Altamont Sport Horses
    Trakehners * Knabstruppers * Appaloosa Sport Horses
    Home of stallions: Ambrosius af Asgard "Atlantis" & Hollywood Hot Spot
    Birmingham, AL



  7. #7
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    May. 31, 2004
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Altamont Sport Horses View Post
    I looked at your filly on the JG Appaloosas website. Very cute girl! I like her.

    Your chance of spotted color is on the low end. Your filly is heterozygous for LP so there is a 50% chance she will throw LP to her foal. She may have one or two copies of PATN but they are the less extensive patterns (smallish blankets, lacy blankets). If Marcie has one copy of PATN and she is definitely heterozygous for LP you would have a 50% probability of having appaloosa characteristics of which half would be characteristics only (no spots or pattern, just sclera, striped hooves, mottling and eventually some roaning) and the other half would be with spots or pattern. So that is a 25% chance of characteristics with no spots/pattern and 25% chance of characteristics and spots/pattern. The other 50% is no characteristics and no spots/pattern because LP is not passed on and that is necessary for PATN to be expressed.

    If the dam (your filly) is carrying more than one PATN then your chances of spots/pattern at birth could go up to as high as 50%.

    If you are breeding to a grey who is heterozygous this does not effect whether or not your foal will be born spotted but if it will remain spotted. I did a similar breeding and estimated that my chances of getting a spotted foal from a heterozygous dam (also bay) and a heterozygous grey (born black) that would not go grey would be only 12.5%. We weren't concerned, this cross was for athletic ability, etc. Anyway, guess what I got in the color department? A completely solid chestnut colt, no spots, no chrome and apparently no grey. What was the probability of that...<1%?!?! www.altamontsporthorses.com/machado.html

    Usually offspring will not express color in a larger pattern than their parents unless there is a cumulative effect (hypothesized) by being homozygous for PATN1. Also, some base colors suppress spots/pattern more. With all things being equal a chestnut foal would have the largest white blanket with spots, a bay less than the chestnut and a black the smallest (black suppresses more than bay for some reason).

    Amount of chrome seems to also effect amount of expression as well as some other suppressing genes which are not yet identified. Sabino foals that are spotted will have a lot of white patterning but the spots tend to be smaller. Those with less chrome (like a small star or no star) may or may not express less white but do seem to have larger sized spots.

    There has also been some talk that fillies may express less white than colts with all other factors being the same.

    Hope this makes sense. We breed Appaloosas and cross with warmbloods as well so I study this a bit but might not explain it very well.
    Thanks everyone for your information. I don't have the ability or know how to post a pic here which is why I referred you to the website. My filly does have scelara, a snowcap, but, all black hooves and many of her siblings are solids though only half siblings. I think all her full siblings have color. I was just curious so either way I'm just happy first to hopefully get her pregnant and to have a healthy baby!

    Altamont I'll look at your site! Thanks



  8. #8
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    Feb. 23, 1999
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    Cypress, near Houston, Texas
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    Default

    WHY OH WHY are you breeding her to a gray stallion? That is so frowned upon by the Appaloosa breeders as the gray gene will mask all the other color you might get but can also be disguised for years be the Appy color.

    I adore Mannhattan. I have bred to him several times. But I would NEVER breed him to a colored mare. I hope you will reconsider. Kathy St. Martin has several very nice stallions that are NOT gray.

    -------------------
    Edited to say that I didn't mean my post to sound so critical. It's just that I take these breeding "color faux pas" very seriously. I know that color is not your main reason for breeding. It never should be. It's just that you can still protect the proper color genetics and ALSO get a wonderful sport horse by breeding to a solid colored (or another spottie) stallion!
    Visit Sonesta Farms website at www.sonestafarms.com or our FaceBook page at www.facebook.com/sonestafarms. Also showing & breeding Cavalier King Charles Spaniels.



  9. #9
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    Mar. 4, 2008
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    Default photo of the filly

    Quote Originally Posted by SSFLandon View Post
    Thanks everyone for your information. I don't have the ability or know how to post a pic here which is why I referred you to the website. My filly does have scelara, a snowcap, but, all black hooves and many of her siblings are solids though only half siblings. I think all her full siblings have color. I was just curious so either way I'm just happy first to hopefully get her pregnant and to have a healthy baby!

    Altamont I'll look at your site! Thanks
    I've posted a photo of SSFLandon's filly below upon her request.

    Regarding her appaloosa pattern, she is technically not a snowcap. She is more of a small laced blanket (as laced blankets usually are), perhaps spotted...her's is a bit combined. A snowcap would be solid white with no spots or only one or two. Snowcaps are homozygous for LP as are few spot leopards. If she was a snowcap (or few spot or homozygous roan) her blanket would be solid white and her hooves would be amber. This tells me that she is carrying only 1 copy of Lp. What we don't know from looking at her is if she is carrying more than one copy of any PATN modifiers. She does not carry the major PATN1 which causes very large blankets (to the withers) up to leopards. Other indicators of homozygosity is the tendency to have a great deal of mottling on the face and around the eyes and more pigment loss in these areas over time than the heterozygous appaloosa.

    The dam, Waps Masquerade is a few spot leopard. She has only one copy of PATN1 though. For a horse to be a few spot it must inherit one copy of PATN1 and two copies of LP. Being a few spot does not mean she has two PATN1 for leopard patterning. If she had two she would always throw huge spotted blankets to the withers at a minimum and up to leopards or near leopards. But your filly does not show signs of carrying PATN1 and in 2004 her first filly had a somewhat smaller snowcap (might or might not be PATN1 involved. Masquerade is homozygous for LP so all her foals will have appaloosa characteristics and the ability to express appaloosa patterning if any of those PATN modifiers are indeed passed on.

    Incidentally I have a few spot leopard mare who we have discovered is only heterozygous for PATN1 and perhaps heterozygous for other PATN modifiers because her first filly was born with characteristics but no pattern. These foals will tend to roan over time as her filly is doing (no pictures until she has shed out the coat entirely).

    All this is neither here nor there where it concerns this breeding because you are not particularly interested in color this year. It is something to keep in mind for future breedings if you choose to breed your filly to an appaloosa stallion and would like to increase your chances of color. If you do, please keep my young appaloosa stallion in mind. He is heterozygous for LP and PATN1 (blanket to the withers and lightning marks on all four legs) and while this would not assure color it would increase the changes of the foal being colored, not to mention that he is a lovely moving sport horse (ApHC registered) which would be a good outcross for both of the most common appaloosa sport horse bloodlines, Waps Spot 2 and Chocklate Confetti.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Altamont Sport Horses
    Trakehners * Knabstruppers * Appaloosa Sport Horses
    Home of stallions: Ambrosius af Asgard "Atlantis" & Hollywood Hot Spot
    Birmingham, AL



  10. #10
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    Oct. 22, 2003
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    Default

    As stated before, remember if you breed her to a grey, you risk getting a grey foal.

    As they mature and they fade you'll end up with something like this:

    http://www.appylittleangels.com/toyl...%20pic%202.jpg
    http://image.equinenow.com/60582_1/aphc_lightening.jpg
    http://www.prismportal.com/diamondk/mya-100_0696_o.jpg

    So it depends on what suits your goals.. if you're really after the loud color, avoid a grey stallion. If you're convinced that he's the PERFECT stallion for your mare and adore him, and are just willing to risk the grey, go for it.
    "The nice thing about memories is the good ones are stronger and linger longer than the bad and we sure have some incredibly good memories." - EverythingButWings



  11. #11
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    Dec. 13, 1999
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    Greensboro, NC
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    Default

    Remember that the appy Varnish will "gray" out a horse as well. The first appy in that last set of links looked Varnish as opposed to gray. The tell-tale sign, among a few others, is the bony points remain dark - bridge of nose, knees/hocks, pasterns, etc.
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  12. #12
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    Mar. 27, 2008
    Location
    Athens
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    Default

    I bred my appy mare to the grey stallion, Stiletto and ,this is what the filly looks like

    http://www.coyotecreekfarm.net/News.html

    She is definitly going grey, and very quickly. Her face is shedding out grey and there are silver hairs coming through in her mane.

    I bred to Stiletto as I was looking for a Trakhaner stallion with a strong eventing record within my budget and he fit the bill. The fact that he is grey was a bonus for me as it is my second favorite color after appy. This filly is my keeper filly so I am happy that she is going to go grey. I am also happy that she was born with a blanket! It is very fun to have her changing colors. It is like a new filly to look at each morning



  13. #13
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    Jun. 15, 2006
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    Default

    Is there more than 1 Manhattan? Because I'm pretty sure the one I had in mind is Dark bay, not gray

    I'm thinking the Burggraaf son Manhattan btw



  14. #14
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    Sep. 8, 2007
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    Default

    I believe the OP is talking about Kathy St. Martin's Manhattan:

    http://www.avalon-equine.com/mannhattan.html



  15. #15
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    May. 31, 2004
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    Default

    Thanks everyone for your input. I will be breeding to Kathy's and like I said I am not breeding for color but, for athleticism. The pic of the baby is adorable and I'm sure whatever I get color wise will be fine as again color is NOT a concern. I am not going to change stallions for many reasons.

    I am open to looking at other appy x gray horses for examples of course which is why I posted this, . With that said Mannhatten has thrown many non gray offspring too so I think it's very hard to say what can happen. I really don't think I'm going to get albino or cremello markings as the other pics showed but, if I do and the foal is talented then so be it. They are good match for quality not color and I'll take my color chances. My friend bred a bay to a black and got a light chestnut with a blonde mane and tail...go figure?!?!?

    Altamont I appreciate all your help!



  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonesta View Post
    WHY OH WHY are you breeding her to a gray stallion? That is so frowned upon by the Appaloosa breeders as the gray gene will mask all the other color you might get but can also be disguised for years be the Appy color.

    I adore Mannhattan. I have bred to him several times. But I would NEVER breed him to a colored mare. I hope you will reconsider. Kathy St. Martin has several very nice stallions that are NOT gray.

    -------------------
    Edited to say that I didn't mean my post to sound so critical. It's just that I take these breeding "color faux pas" very seriously. I know that color is not your main reason for breeding. It never should be. It's just that you can still protect the proper color genetics and ALSO get a wonderful sport horse by breeding to a solid colored (or another spottie) stallion!
    I appreciate your strong desire to keep the color but, that is not my concern just curious. Thanks for your information though. I am a hunter/jumper person and I own an appaloosa for her ability not color. In the future I will keep your words in mind and perhaps breed her again. I the meantime I just want to get her pregnant first!



  17. #17
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    Jun. 15, 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by horsechica58 View Post
    I believe the OP is talking about Kathy St. Martin's Manhattan:

    http://www.avalon-equine.com/mannhattan.html

    Ohh I see, the spelling threw me off

    That's MaNNhattan

    My bad...



  18. #18
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    Sep. 8, 2007
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    Default

    So sorry Libera. My bad, I missed an "N".



  19. #19
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    Default breeding

    I had a solid mare... bred 2x to Waps Reflection
    ended up with 2 lovely foals.....1st colt(Waps Little Bit) bay with blanket..
    and filly, lovely, breathtaking.... WapsBrightSky...she looked like a 6mo foal at birth... just stunning.
    I quit while I was ahead and then just bought from Ginnys backyard.
    PoeticJustice/ch blanket and Waps in Disquise a solid.
    both top horses in show/hunt and event!


    Either way, its a coin toss... I got lucky
    But when you get such a terrific horse, who really cares what color they come in?



  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by brightskyfarm View Post
    I had a solid mare... bred 2x to Waps Reflection
    ended up with 2 lovely foals.....1st colt(Waps Little Bit) bay with blanket..
    and filly, lovely, breathtaking.... WapsBrightSky...she looked like a 6mo foal at birth... just stunning.
    I quit while I was ahead and then just bought from Ginnys backyard.
    PoeticJustice/ch blanket and Waps in Disquise a solid.
    both top horses in show/hunt and event!


    Either way, its a coin toss... I got lucky
    But when you get such a terrific horse, who really cares what color they come in?
    It's so sad Ginny has to sell!! I'm glad the horses are getting great homes. I am also so happy to own a terrific mare that is moving and free jumping great. I so look forward to an offspring from her and the time when she is ready for the show ring! She is a great mare with talent and that is what i care about too!



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