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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr. 14, 2003
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    zone 3
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    71

    Default Another Ammy Question

    I have a question about ammy statuses. My friend has a 5 stall barn at her house and wants to bring her 3 horses, my horse, and another girls horse in to board. I will not be paying board, just for my vet/farrier/supplements but will be asked to help take care of the 5 horses. I will be paid to supervise two young girls at the barn, in them helping feed, care, and ride horses, as well as take them to their extracurricular activities, the pool, the movies... mostly like a babysitter... I will not be giving instruction.

    This friend lets me show her horse at the same shows she shows in, as we compete the mare at different levels. I pay entry fees and trainer fees on the horse, as well as most of my food (although occasionally I do all prep work (grooming, lunging, unbraiding and tacking... groom work) and she will buy my dinner).

    Will taking care of her horse change my ammy status? I would assume not as I am not being paid to ride a horse or give instruction, ever. I actually ride the horse at a lower level than she shows the mare. Should I get a signed agreement in writing that states what duties I will be paid for and which I will be not, so that there is never a question? I really am not qualified to be a pro, and don't claim to be, however, it is definitely a cheaper boarding option (more like a self care facility) and a cheap way of showing (no hauling bills or stall bills).
    ~HorseRIDINchick



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar. 19, 2003
    Posts
    378

    Default

    My understanding is - If you are paid for anything (babysitting, bookwork..) by the person who owns the horse and you show the horse, it would make your classification a pro. If I am wrong on this I am sure I will be corrected.
    M
    Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from behind, or a fool from any direction



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb. 1, 2001
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    Finally...back in civilization, more or less
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    11,679

    Default

    Unfortunately the rule does not allow you to separate what you get paid for vs. what you do not get paid for. If you get paid to groom, and then also show the horse... you are considered a pro.

    c. Accepts remuneration for employment in other capacity (e.g., secretary, bookkeeper, veterinarian, groom, farrier) and gives instruction, rides, drives, shows, trains or schools horses, other than horses actually owned or leased by him/her, when his/her employer or a member of the family of said employer or a corporation which a member of his/her family controls, owns, boards or trains said horses.
    **********
    We move pretty fast for some rabid garden snails.
    -PaulaEdwina



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun. 20, 2008
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    Default

    I see this more as an boarding situation - not a situation in which you are working for a trainer, teaching etc. It's a private barn w/ a few stalls and your friend has offered up a stall to you in exchange for helping around the barn.. am I correct? To be on the safe side I don't necessarily agree w/ Lucassb's reponse/post - because your friend is not your employer and you are not her employee per se. Certainly if I boarded my horse at my friends house and helped out w/ the barn chores, and showed her horse - I wouldn't be in violation of any rule. My interpretation of your post is more like along the lines of sharing chores at a barn in exchange for a stall vs employment. To be on the safe side shoot off an email to USEF or give them a call for clarification...



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr. 23, 2005
    Posts
    1,218

    Default

    I don't think the problem is the boarding, but the fact that the OP will be getting paid to look after the other students. The rule that Lucassb posted specfically says that the type of employment is irrelevant.

    In such a case, would it be possible for you to do a half [free] lease on your BO's mare so that she would categorically fall under the exception of horses leased or owned by the competitor?



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb. 27, 2008
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    1,073

    Default

    So if one rides and shows a horse for a trainer and recieves free training... they violate this rule... correct?
    *Paige*
    ~*It's not about the ribbons, but about the ride behind it"
    R.I.P. Teddy O'Connor



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun. 12, 2007
    Location
    CT
    Posts
    6,417

    Default

    You would be employed for an individual (receives free board as compensation for babysitting) and also ride that individuals horse. That makes you a pro. If you are employed by someone in any capacity, you cannot also ride that persons horse (at home or at a show).



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Apr. 14, 2003
    Location
    zone 3
    Posts
    71

    Default

    Thanks guys! I'll make a change of plans.
    ~HorseRIDINchick



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Apr. 23, 2005
    Posts
    1,218

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by joiedevie99 View Post
    You would be employed for an individual (receives free board as compensation for babysitting) and also ride that individuals horse. That makes you a pro. If you are employed by someone in any capacity, you cannot also ride that persons horse (at home or at a show).
    Unless you are leasing said horse.

    Hence my suggestion about the free lease.



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb. 3, 2000
    Location
    Nokesville, VA
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gottagrey View Post
    I see this more as an boarding situation - not a situation in which you are working for a trainer, teaching etc. It's a private barn w/ a few stalls and your friend has offered up a stall to you in exchange for helping around the barn.. am I correct? To be on the safe side I don't necessarily agree w/ Lucassb's reponse/post - because your friend is not your employer and you are not her employee per se. Certainly if I boarded my horse at my friends house and helped out w/ the barn chores, and showed her horse - I wouldn't be in violation of any rule. My interpretation of your post is more like along the lines of sharing chores at a barn in exchange for a stall vs employment. To be on the safe side shoot off an email to USEF or give them a call for clarification...
    The USEF amateur rules are very clear that "free board" is considered "remuneration " ("pay")
    GR 1306.2.d)
    (Note: Horse board, prize money, partial support or objects of more than $300 are considered remuneration, not small tokens of appreciation).
    Because she is receiveing "remuneration", the barn owner IS her employer in USEF terms, even if not in IRS terms.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb. 3, 2000
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    Nokesville, VA
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by over the moon View Post
    Unless you are leasing said horse.

    Hence my suggestion about the free lease.
    I think it needs to be a FULL lease, and I think the lease needs to be registered with the USEF.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Nov. 23, 1999
    Location
    South Coast Plaza
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    20,500

    Default

    Free lease. AKA distorting so that a person can get around the rules. Just like the $1 "purchase" that is really a lease, but means the rule can be bent hard so that the person shows in the AOs.
    EDDIE WOULD GO



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb. 1, 2001
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    Finally...back in civilization, more or less
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Coreene View Post
    Free lease. AKA distorting so that a person can get around the rules. Just like the $1 "purchase" that is really a lease, but means the rule can be bent hard so that the person shows in the AOs.
    Sad but true. And unfortunately it is because people are always looking for ways to get around the rules that we HAVE all of these restrictions in the first place.
    **********
    We move pretty fast for some rabid garden snails.
    -PaulaEdwina



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jun. 20, 2008
    Posts
    5,713

    Default

    Sorry folks, I stand corrected, I didn't read/see (not enough coffee and waaaayy too much rain) the part in post where OP will be paid to oversee other employees - therefore making poster an employee... which then would be in violation of the Amateur Rules...



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jun. 20, 2008
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Janet View Post
    The USEF amateur rules are very clear that "free board" is considered "remuneration " ("pay")
    GR 1306.2.d) Because she is receiveing "remuneration", the barn owner IS her employer in USEF terms, even if not in IRS terms.
    I'm wrong in the OP situation as I didn't read her post thoroughly but you mean to say that if I boarded my horse at a friends barn, didn't charge me board because she needs/wants horses at her place I would be in violation of the Am. Rule - if I showed my and/or her horse??



  16. #16
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    Feb. 1, 2001
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gottagrey View Post
    I'm wrong in the OP situation as I didn't read her post thoroughly but you mean to say that if I boarded my horse at a friends barn, didn't charge me board because she needs/wants horses at her place I would be in violation of the Am. Rule - if I showed my and/or her horse??
    Free board is specifically considered renumeration. See Janet's post above.
    **********
    We move pretty fast for some rabid garden snails.
    -PaulaEdwina



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Feb. 3, 2000
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    Nokesville, VA
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gottagrey View Post
    I'm wrong in the OP situation as I didn't read her post thoroughly but you mean to say that if I boarded my horse at a friends barn, didn't charge me board because she needs/wants horses at her place I would be in violation of the Am. Rule - if I showed my and/or her horse??
    The rule is clear that you are OK with riding the horse you OWN (or lease).

    But yes, if you go by the letter of the rule, the free board would be considered "remuneration" , and riding the Barn owner's horse would make you "not-an-amateur".

    It is a rule that clearly has lots of "unintended consequences", and I don't know how the hearing committee would handle some of the more "obviously not REALLY being paid for riding" cases. But the rule as written is very strict.

    For a descrption of the origins of this rule, do a search for "amateur" and "bookkeeper".
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  18. #18
    Join Date
    Feb. 16, 2008
    Posts
    93

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Coreene View Post
    Free lease. AKA distorting so that a person can get around the rules. Just like the $1 "purchase" that is really a lease, but means the rule can be bent hard so that the person shows in the AOs.
    Coreene - You MUST be in the same zone I am in where this $1 lease and $1 purchase is still alive and well for certain people!



  19. #19
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    Feb. 3, 2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by happyhorse3 View Post
    Coreene - You MUST be in the same zone I am in where this $1 lease and $1 purchase is still alive and well for certain people!
    Note that 1306.1 f) and g) now say
    (A family member of a trainer may not
    absolve themselves of this rule by entering into a lease or any other agreement for a
    horse owned by a client of the trainer).
    (apparently this came out of the Arabian discipline).

    I expect it is only a matter of time before c) gets a similar restriction for "employees".
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  20. #20
    Join Date
    Feb. 16, 2008
    Posts
    93

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Janet View Post
    Note that 1306.1 f) and g) now say

    (apparently this came out of the Arabian discipline).

    I expect it is only a matter of time before c) gets a similar restriction for "employees".
    So Janet, how do people blatantly get away with this?? The people that are doing this are employed by the trainer and when people started raising their voices about them riding horses that did not belong to them and the true "owners" were clients of the trainer, with the "heat" being on them the trainer simply recorded with the USEF that the shammy's were "onwers" or "leasers" of the horse. Why didn't or doesn't the USEF notice this??? I am so confused by the "rules" since they either are not being enforced or there really are giant loopholes? Educate me more please Janet. Thanks!



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