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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb. 10, 2009
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    578

    Default Which wormer now...?

    So, my gelding needs to be wormed again beginning of May. For a long time he was just on ivermectin, then back in Jan I gave strongid double dose, then in March quest plus. I didn't see much difference with the Strongid, but a HUGE difference after the Quest plus. No idea if it was bc of tapeworm or bc of strongyles, although he was getting the prazi 2X yearly before as well in the ivermectin, so I am thinking probably the stronglyes.

    This leads me to want to powerpak. Should I do an ivermectin in the rotation again and wait another 4 weeks to powerpak, or should I go ahead and do the powerpak without worrying about the ivermectin? I want to get rid of everything in a safe manner... and I've heard that you can do powerpak at any time regardless of where you are in the rotation, and also that you should do ivermectin at least every other time that you worm.

    So.... what next? Thanks for the advice



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec. 13, 1999
    Location
    Greensboro, NC
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    36,722

    Default

    Since you gave moxidectin, even if you gave it March 1, you wouldn't want to do anything else until June 1 - 12 weeks for moxidectin.

    You saw a difference after the Quest because you killed encysted strongyles - same as a Power Pack, except moxidectin doesn't get the EL3 stage.

    Strongid (pyrantel pamoate) has a high enough resistance that it's almost useless as a single-dose product now. SAme with fenbendazole. But the double dose of strongid got your tapeworms, just not a whole lot else. The Quest cleaned him out but good.

    So, June 1 you could go back to a regular ivermectin.
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar. 5, 2003
    Location
    Wake Forest, NC
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    634

    Default

    JB - Are you saying that there is no need to worm with ANYTHING for 3 months after Quest? I rotate my de-wormers every 6-8 weeks. Should I push back my rotation after administering Quest products?

    Thanks.



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec. 13, 1999
    Location
    Greensboro, NC
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GallopHer View Post
    JB - Are you saying that there is no need to worm with ANYTHING for 3 months after Quest? I rotate my de-wormers every 6-8 weeks. Should I push back my rotation after administering Quest products?
    Yes, that's what I'm saying. Every 6-8 weeks is not a valid rotational schedule. You typically don't do anything after ivermectin for 8 weeks; moxidectin for 12 weeks. Single doses of pyrantel pamoate and fenbendazole are almost useless in a normal rotation now due to high resistance, so you don't normally use them at all ( in single doses) but if you do, for some reason, then you'd wait 4-6 weeks after that to use something else.

    It's all about the ERP - egg reappearance period - which is different for each chemical.
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar. 5, 2003
    Location
    Wake Forest, NC
    Posts
    634

    Default

    Great info, JB. Thanks. I use a 6-8 rotational schedule that my vet distributes. But, I've always had a feeling that his recommendations are outdated.

    You're in NC, also. Do you have a "set" rotation that you use? I'd love that info, if you don't mind sharing.



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec. 13, 1999
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    Greensboro, NC
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GallopHer View Post
    Great info, JB. Thanks. I use a 6-8 rotational schedule that my vet distributes. But, I've always had a feeling that his recommendations are outdated.
    Ahhh yes, the "vet rotation". Most vets are very, very outdated when it comes to dewormers, unfortunately. Maybe you can suggest kindly that your vet watch The Horse's deworming webinar

    You're in NC, also. Do you have a "set" rotation that you use? I'd love
    that info, if you don't mind sharing.
    Well, it sort of goes roughly like this:

    late Winter/early Spring do a Power Pack
    2 weeks later 1.5x anthelcide
    8 weeks later ivermecin
    8 weeks later double pyrantel pamoate
    8 weeks later ivermectin
    8 weeks later ivermectin
    8 weeks later ivermectin+praziquantel (I only use Equimax)

    I think I got all the rotations. I took part of this, mainly the anthelcide dose, from EqTrainer's program. Note that it's not a single dose of anthelcide, which is pretty ineffective these days (oxibendazole). The 1.5x dose is still effective against strongyloides.

    I swap out one ivermectin rotation for just a tapeworm rotation, so I can lay off constantly using ivermectin.

    Now, if we have a hot dry July/August, and one of those ivermecs falls in there, I'll usually skip it - the environment is just not very conducive to egg/parasite survival in the pasture, which gets dragged regularly in the Summer to expose things to the sun and heat. But if it's a wet(er) Summer, I'll keep on going.

    At the end of this year, I'll have another FEC run to make sure things are still clean, and if so, I will likely not be so frequent with the ivermectin next year, and will check FECs about twice in the year to make sure that's still ok.
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb. 10, 2009
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    578

    Default

    I realize moxi lasts 82 days - but I have to worm May 15. Basically, my barn is on a set worming schedule, you can either do it yourself or pay the BO to do it, but all the horses HAVE to get wormed on the same day. She only uses ivermectin with the praziquantel combo 2x yearly, and after discussing with the vet/chiro back in Jan. I started rotating myself. So, the BO gave ivermectin single dose in January (honestly he probably has a huge wormload because I'd been on her program of single dose ivermectin for about a year and a half, and he's a huge horse so I'm betting he wasn't even getting enough. Didn't realize she was only giving 1 tube and assuming he was under 1250...). I gave the strongid double in mid-feb, then in mid-March gave the moxi+prazi combo, because my vet said that the only things that work for more than 4 weeks really are moxi and ivermectin. So, I have to worm him on May 15 - the BO is really strict about this date to control worms on the property.

    So, knowing I have to hit him with *something,* should it be the ivermectin double, an ivermectin single to minimize stress on his system and then do the powerpac when the moxi date is up in June, or should I go ahead and do the powerpac?

    Of course, I could try to fib and just use a syringe of applesauce. Doesn't sit quite right, but if it would be really damaging to the horse to worm again, I'm not above it...



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb. 10, 2009
    Posts
    578

    Default

    And to JB - I really think the Quest did it too. I used the strongid first to clean him out a little, but the quest did a great job.

    I am pretty sure it was strongyles because he's had praziquantel for the tapes 2x yearly (although it's possible at 1 dose he wasn't getting enough). I'm really itching to powerpac now because I know it'll get the L3 that the moxi left if he's got a big wormload, and I can't wait to see him bloom out after that.

    Basically I need someone to tell me if I need to be patient (not my strong suit) or if I can go ahead I am betting I probably need to be patient, but I am hoping that someone with a little more experience with this rotation stuff will say that powerpacs can be done at any time... it's kindof like Christmas Eve for me to see the changes in this horse! It's so hard to wait when I know something will help him...



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct. 29, 1999
    Posts
    14,409

    Default

    Deworming is all new. Research has shown that 95% of he wrorms are resistant to fenbendazole and other "zole" dewormers. 50% of the worms are resistant to strongid. The only way to tell is to run a quantitive fecal, deworm with that product, and then run another quantitive fecal to see the difference (what % is killed), so you can know the effectiveness on your worm population. If a drug is not effective on your farm, using it is just throwing money down the drain.

    New guidelines recommend using different worming programs on different horses, depending on their natural, genetic worm immunity.

    You should really take the time to watch this video webinar "Deworming your horse". http://www.thehorse.com/Video.aspx?vID=183
    You have to sign up for a free membership and log in first to view.



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec. 13, 1999
    Location
    Greensboro, NC
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    36,722

    Default

    evans36, don't take this the wrong way, but it's time to stand up and educate your BO on parasite control issues Do watch that webinar - it's awesome, and has the most up to date information on what chemicals are still effective and which are not, the dangers of potentially causing or increasing resistance by simple deworming according to "well, it's been 8 weeks, time to use something again."

    It's not a matter of just sticking a tube in their mouth on the 15th of every other month. That is part of why we're in such trouble now

    So no, I would not deworm with anything in May. Seriously.
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar. 5, 2003
    Location
    Wake Forest, NC
    Posts
    634

    Default Webinar

    Thanks for the heads up about the Webinar on THE HORSE website. I've seen links to it, but I assumed it might be biased because of their sponsors. I'm glad to hear that the info is good. I'll try to check out the next one.



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb. 10, 2009
    Posts
    578

    Default

    Thanks for the advice. Apparently the vet that the BO has used forever has told her that ivermectin every 8 weeks and prazi 2x yearly is fully sufficient for the animals on her farm. She's very low-maintenance, horses-be-horses, and a bit old-fashioned. Love her and she knows a hell of a lot, but she's been stubborn about the "my horse, my worming schedule" thing. Especially because the vet backed her up who knows when. I love the barn and my horse is really happy there, but it is definitely somewhat frustrating when the worming schedules and feeding practices are concerned.

    It's a conversation we've had before and she "won" because otherwise I'd have had to move the pony. But I will just try again I reckon and see. And if she says no, I will just use applesauce.

    My horse hates it, so he'll play along and spit it out just like wormer



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Oct. 29, 1999
    Posts
    14,409

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GallopHer View Post
    Thanks for the heads up about the Webinar on THE HORSE website. I've seen links to it, but I assumed it might be biased because of their sponsors. I'm glad to hear that the info is good. I'll try to check out the next one.
    You don't have to wait. The full video is stored on their website at the link I posted. You just have to be signed in to click on it, and see the webinar.



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Oct. 29, 1999
    Posts
    14,409

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by evans36 View Post
    Thanks for the advice. Apparently the vet that the BO has used forever has told her that ivermectin every 8 weeks and prazi 2x yearly is fully sufficient for the animals on her farm. She's very low-maintenance, horses-be-horses, and a bit old-fashioned. Love her and she knows a hell of a lot, but she's been stubborn about the "my horse, my worming schedule" thing. Especially because the vet backed her up who knows when.
    Send her a link, AND her vet. Tell them these are NEW guidelines, that replace the 40 year old "recipe" for controlling worms. It is EXCELLENT, and and I am ALWAYS a sceptic. No one is more old fashion than I am unless something really makes a lot of sense.



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