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  1. #1
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    Default Hunter Breeding Classes

    What is the use of participating if the big name judge pins the horses belonging to another big name judge regardless of how they should be pinned?!

    They want increased participation in these classes and the American Sporthorse industry but it is like taking money and throwing it out of the window when someone is going to win based on their name tag!!

    Our two year old beat was best young horse out of many entries in Pin Oak but got beat by a yearling that wouldn't even trot for rearing up at this last show.

    Sorry...I have sour grapes right now.



  2. #2
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    a) The trot is not as important as the conformation and stance. My yearlings trotted better than others at their first show but couldn't stand still to save their lives; they lost.

    b) If you don't like it, write to the USEF. That's how things (possibly) get changed.

    c) Maybe the yearling was just plain nicer than your horse. Not to be mean, but owners often think their horse is the bestest, most beautiful-est horse in the world. I'm certainly guilty of it sometimes.

    Instead of sweating the pinnings I just look at how much great mileage the youngsters are getting going to shows before they ACTUALLY have to work at them. The ribbons are the icing, and I like it that way. Eventually the big names will fade out and make way for new ones.
    Who needs wings when you've got a jumper?
    http://darkstr.webs.com



  3. #3
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    Our reasoning for showing on the line is exposure/mileage. I firmly believe it goes a long way with babies.

    Winning for us is just icing on the cake.

    And yes, the political side of showing is not conducive to the industry.
    Collector of fine ponies.

    In loving memory of Mr.Zipp 3-25-72 / 11-4-08



  4. #4
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    Nov. 8, 2007
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    Default

    Don't venture to Devon.... the same handler has been BYH 35 years in a row!!



  5. #5
    EllenAspen is offline Working Hunter Premium Member
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    Default



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    a) The trot is not as important as the conformation and stance. My yearlings trotted better than others at their first show but couldn't stand still to save their lives; they lost.

    b) If you don't like it, write to the USEF. That's how things (possibly) get changed.

    c) Maybe the yearling was just plain nicer than your horse. Not to be mean, but owners often think their horse is the bestest, most beautiful-est horse in the world. I'm certainly guilty of it sometimes.

    Instead of sweating the pinnings I just look at how much great mileage the youngsters are getting going to shows before they ACTUALLY have to work at them. The ribbons are the icing, and I like it that way. Eventually the big names will fade out and make way for new ones.
    The yearling didn't stand well either...he was too busy rearing up. And I know I am very partial to my own. But, come on...he beat out 16 others in Pin Oak among very nice competition...I mean it can't be only me thinkin' he looks nice.

    I may write to USEF...they seem that they are trying to promote hunter breeding...but, if it is only gonna' be about the name tag...I can think of other ways to get my horses experience without spending all this money.



  6. #6
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    It'll take a judge with a lot of guts to break that streak at Devon! When Claim to Fame won his class and came in right behind "said owner/handler" for BYH I was told by a gentleman who goes to Devon every year "there isn't a judge in the country who'd pin a pinto from Tallahassee over " you know who "..........because he knows he'd never be invited back to Devon to judge!" You may note, I haven't been back there to show in hunter breeding.........why spend the money and drive 21 hours with a youngster, knowing you don't have a level playing field!!??
    Don't mean to sound like sour grapes, but this is a TRUE story!!!

    Oops, I hope we don't start this debate again, haha...........where's Bill?????
    www.flyingcolorsfarm.comHome of pinto stallion Claim to Fame and his homozygous son, Counterclaim. Friend us on Facebook!https://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Fl...04678589573428



  7. #7
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EllenAspen View Post
    The yearling didn't stand well either...he was too busy rearing up. And I know I am very partial to my own. But, come on...he beat out 16 others in Pin Oak among very nice competition...I mean it can't be only me thinkin' he looks nice.

    I may write to USEF...they seem that they are trying to promote hunter breeding...but, if it is only gonna' be about the name tag...I can think of other ways to get my horses experience without spending all this money.
    There is nothing in the HB class specs about manners. So it makes no difference if the colt you are fussing about did not behave.

    What exactly are you going to complain to USEF about? That you got beat?



  8. #8
    EllenAspen is offline Working Hunter Premium Member
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    There is nothing in the HB class specs about manners. So it makes no difference if the colt you are fussing about did not behave.

    What exactly are you going to complain to USEF about? That you got beat?
    Good point...again though, if there is no clear criteria other than what is it they say...the ability to be a hunter or to beget hunters...very vague at best...and don't they judge hunter classes on manners...last time I went around a hunter course with a horse rearing up...didn't turn out too good./?

    But, your point is good...we got beat...don't like it...seems like flagrant good ole' boy judging...but, what are we gonna' do about it but maybe not participate going forward...



  9. #9
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    Actually, that is NOT the way to get change made. Stay in it, find out who is on the committees making the rules (download them from USEF and you will see how vague they are) and work to get them improved/changed.

    You will find judges that don't care about manners, especially on the yearlings, and judges that do. The older horses ARE expected to behave better, as it is assumed they have had more experience. That yearling may have been at his first show. You can train all you want at home, but when they get to a show, all bets are off and you sometimes have to start all over. But, since it isn't addressed in the rules, the judge doesn't have to put any weight on manners at all. Maybe he saw more overall quality in the yearling. Maybe he has no clue what a nice horse is. Judges in this division run the whole gamut. And, it is a subjective class. One judge's perfect horse may stand at the end of the line under another. Personal preference and all that. But one thing is for sure: even if you really DO have the nicest horse in the country, you should never expect that that is going to guarantee you a blue ribbon every outing. Won't happen.
    Laurie
    Finding, preparing, showing and training young hunters, in hand and performance.
    www.juniorjohnsontrainingandsales.com



  10. #10
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    So what breed shows are you all attending this year?
    http://www.blazingcoloursfarm.com

    Join us on FACEBOOK
    Living life for the journey, not the destination.



  11. #11
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    I showed a lot in the HB for a number of years and to reserve national champion with one of them. I have to say that you have to play the game. I fought for a long time against it and it was no use. The bottom line is you need to learn the players and pick your battles. You need to know the judges and what each look for. Keep a list. There are some BNJ I have lost respect for and some lesser known judges that despite moving me down, I thanked for doing the right thing. Once you start showing and the horse gets a "name" it starts being easier. The bottom line is unless you have something that can legitimately stand up in all company, you pay your money, you take your licks and you have a more schooled horse for it.

    Personally, I have a really nice yearling in my back yard, that could go stand up and be competitive, and I have 24K and Wow at every show. I have elected to stay home and focus on my performance horses. She will go to SBW and IHF as a two year old, (hopefully by then, because she is so big she will have levelled out.) when she can hack. I will not make the decision about the two and three year HB until we get closer.



  12. #12
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    I just spent the day photographing a HB show. There were some lovely horses, some very well mannered horses, and some heathens that needed to be shot. (no I don't mean that literally) What I want to know is HOW do you judge conformation if the horse won't stand still? Sure you can see how athletic it is, but you certainly can't see if it's legs are straight and clean when they aren't on the ground for more than a half a second at a time. And I can agree that you can't necessarily expect the yearlings to come out perfect for the first few shows, but by the time they are 2 they should certainly be able to stand still and act like decent animals for the few minutes they are in the ring. If they can't then maybe they don't need to be there because they make it a very unfair and dangerous environment for everyone else in the ring - handlers, judges and horses.

    just my humble .02 worth.....
    Not all who wander are lost.



  13. #13
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    I've noticed that at the "A" shows I've gone to or watched. It's all about who the "trainer" is and quite political. And in all honestly, it's really not worth it for a $1 ribbon! It's a beauty contest in many ways and has no determination of what kind of horses they will be under saddle in the future. IMO it's just not worth the money ($100+ just in show fees, $90 braider, $100 stall, $50 handler etc) to stand in an arena for 5 minutes to see who is the prettiest. Its one moment in time.

    I think if you just want exposure for your horse to get him used to sights and sounds just take him to hang out at a show for a day or go to some lesser rated shows for mileage. Thats what I'm doing with my boy. I want to have fun with him and not worry about the ribbon or a "point."
    Cloverfox Stables



  14. #14
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    And that is fine for you, Halo. But a lot of us enjoy the competition,even the bitching about the bad judging. But you can't duplicate the exposure (including the prep) to a show by actually going in the ring. Even if they just ride to the show and are walked around, it isn't the same as going in the ring. Getting a baby through Devon is like graduating from high school!

    Hopefully, in the next few years, a correlation between the honestly good horses that win in hand, and those that go on to successful performance careers (even at 3') will start to become obvious. There are a lot of us that really want to focus on that.
    Laurie
    Finding, preparing, showing and training young hunters, in hand and performance.
    www.juniorjohnsontrainingandsales.com



  15. #15
    EllenAspen is offline Working Hunter Premium Member
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    Thanks for all the input...I feel better just venting a bit. And, of course we are very prejudiced towards our own.

    Attached is a pic of the two year old...and a very short video of his HB class in Katy.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhkZs8uW7t0
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	24761  



  16. #16
    EllenAspen is offline Working Hunter Premium Member
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    Laurie:

    But a lot of us enjoy the competition,even the bitching about the bad judging.
    That's true...I love to compete...I'll probably continue to blunder along in the HB classes as long as the $$ hold up...now that I'm done venting



  17. #17
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    Oh, believe me, we vent A LOT! Just usually in the truck on the way home, or while mucking stalls the next morning! I only post when I see a flagrant violation, as I did after Warrenton last year, when judge and exhibitor were seen in a lengthy conversation at ringside, BEFORE the classes. Otherwise, it is the way of subjectivity. Slowly, there will be change because a lot of newer exhibitors are demanding it. But, slow is the operative word!
    Laurie
    Finding, preparing, showing and training young hunters, in hand and performance.
    www.juniorjohnsontrainingandsales.com



  18. #18
    EllenAspen is offline Working Hunter Premium Member
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    Laurie:

    To many that were there...this was flagrant...and we are new...but, I am persistent...so, we will see...



  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllenAspen View Post
    Laurie:

    To many that were there...this was flagrant...and we are new...but, I am persistent...so, we will see...
    When you say flagrant do you mean a rules violation?

    If you are still complaining about the judging that's what you are paying for, the judges opinion. If you don't like that judge don't show in front of them anymore.

    If you have a specific suggestion write to someone on the USHJA Breeding committee. One of the committee members posts on this forum and is very helpful.

    Otherwise it just seems like sour grapes and a bad loser.



  20. #20
    EllenAspen is offline Working Hunter Premium Member
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    If you don't like that judge don't show in front of them anymore.
    I won't...

    Otherwise it just seems like sour grapes
    I said in my original post that I had sour grapes...but, felt better after venting...thanks for your insight



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