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  1. #1
    KJW Guest

    Default overlegislated amateurs

    Does anyone else find the rule change for the AO jumper riders to be a move in the wrong direction? With all due respect for a hard job, the USEF once again appears to be an overlegislative monopoly with this rule change. To review, the powers that be in Kentucky discoved an inconsistency in the AO hunter and AO jumper rules. As it stands now a rider showing in the AO hunters could not ride any other horse at that show that they did not own. I have always found that rule offensive and limiting. It basically states that if you are wealthy enough to own everything then come play. If I have an AO rider at a show and would like to try another professionals horse in the ring with my AO rider why can't we test drive around a low hunter class? I have never understood why riders are forced to part with their horses to move up. If my adult has a three foot horse and wants to buy a three six horse the three foot horse becomes useless to her. Now they want to extend the rule to include the AO jumpers. I think a move is needed but lets go the other way. Deregulate for a change. In Canada there are no AO jumpers just Amatuer levels. If my rider moves up from 1.10m in Canada she can continue riding her 1.10 horse. They have Amateur Level 1, amateur level 2, etc. What would be the harm in coming clean with the titles of the classes. Really AO classes are a matter of paperwork. The best AO jumper in the country is not even owned by it's rider right now except legally and within the rules on paper. We all can buy horses for a dollar with an agreement to sell back at the real owners asking. I suggest in the jumpers running classes restricted to amateurs at whatever height their horse should be doing. Same across the board in the hunter ring. Amateur 2'6", Amateur 2'9", etc. For that matter why not come clean with the working divisions. A 1.40 ten year old from europe suddenly becomes a first year green? How about level 3 hunters, level 4 hunters etc.
    We are in an age where the USEF has become a run away train with regulations. they want to teach us how to ride, direct horse shows, tell us who can teach in our barns at home, judge horse shows from the KY office, and restrict divisions to the point where only the very wealthy can perform. Let's consider looking for ways to simplify and deregulate where possible.
    thanks for your time. I would love to hear input before the rule that was supposed to go into effect in December actually does. They moved the effective date to April but now it's back to December. Perhaps they don't love the direction of the move either. Again thanks for reading.



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar. 9, 2006
    Posts
    553

    Default

    I agree. Not that I have a 3'6" or 3" hunter at the moment but one day I hope to have my mare doing the A/Os and if for some reason I want to ride another horse I own or lease in the 3" divsion, I want to be able to!
    ..............................................
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  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec. 7, 2006
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    867

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KJW View Post
    Does anyone else find the rule change for the AO jumper riders to be a move in the wrong direction? With all due respect for a hard job, the USEF once again appears to be an overlegislative monopoly with this rule change. To review, the powers that be in Kentucky discoved an inconsistency in the AO hunter and AO jumper rules. As it stands now a rider showing in the AO hunters could not ride any other horse at that show that they did not own. I have always found that rule offensive and limiting. It basically states that if you are wealthy enough to own everything then come play. If I have an AO rider at a show and would like to try another professionals horse in the ring with my AO rider why can't we test drive around a low hunter class? I have never understood why riders are forced to part with their horses to move up. If my adult has a three foot horse and wants to buy a three six horse the three foot horse becomes useless to her. Now they want to extend the rule to include the AO jumpers. I think a move is needed but lets go the other way. Deregulate for a change. In Canada there are no AO jumpers just Amatuer levels. If my rider moves up from 1.10m in Canada she can continue riding her 1.10 horse. They have Amateur Level 1, amateur level 2, etc. What would be the harm in coming clean with the titles of the classes. Really AO classes are a matter of paperwork. The best AO jumper in the country is not even owned by it's rider right now except legally and within the rules on paper. We all can buy horses for a dollar with an agreement to sell back at the real owners asking. I suggest in the jumpers running classes restricted to amateurs at whatever height their horse should be doing. Same across the board in the hunter ring. Amateur 2'6", Amateur 2'9", etc. For that matter why not come clean with the working divisions. A 1.40 ten year old from europe suddenly becomes a first year green? How about level 3 hunters, level 4 hunters etc.
    We are in an age where the USEF has become a run away train with regulations. they want to teach us how to ride, direct horse shows, tell us who can teach in our barns at home, judge horse shows from the KY office, and restrict divisions to the point where only the very wealthy can perform. Let's consider looking for ways to simplify and deregulate where possible.
    thanks for your time. I would love to hear input before the rule that was supposed to go into effect in December actually does. They moved the effective date to April but now it's back to December. Perhaps they don't love the direction of the move either. Again thanks for reading.
    It's not that we in Canada are any more enlightened. The fact of the matter is that we don't have enough jumper riders to fill both an amateur division and an amateur owner division. Especially as you move up the levels.

    I don't see this as a problem of USEF over regulation. If competitors would abide by the spirit and letter of the amateur rules and avoid trying to find loop holes, there would be no need for the USEF to bring in new rules to tighten up the regulations.



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan. 7, 2000
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    The burbs of Chicago
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    Default

    It depends on which ZONE you are in whether of not you can cross enter into other divisions... You can ask for a rule change you have to get into contact with your zone. Here in zone 5 I can show in the amatuer adult and amatuer owner at the same show. I can even ride a LEASED HORSE in the amatuer adult as long as usef has the proper paper work. I can also ride in the low amatuer owner jumper and ride a different horse in the amatuer adult jumper if I so please. What I can't do is cross enter into the high a/o and amatuer adult. Which is the way it should be because frankly someone jumping 4.6ft and higher has no place showing against the aa jumpers.

    Also if you want to try someone horse out at a show why do you have to show it??? Why can't you ride it after hours over the jumps in the show ring? Must shows have a ring (ie not a schooling ring) where you can try a horse out in show ring conditions. If your so hell bent on showing it have your trainer show it in the low.?.
    I want to be like Barbie because that bitch has everything!



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar. 28, 2001
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    Aiken, SC
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    Default

    KJW are you referring to this?:
    "Lexington, KY - April 3, 2009 - A Presidential Modification has been granted for rule JP 117.1a, postponing the effective date from April 1, 2009 until December 1, 2009.
    JP 117.1 now reads:
    JP117 Sections/Classes Restricted to Junior, Amateur/Owner, or Young Riders. 1. Amateur Owner Jumper: A horse that is ridden by an Amateur Owner or an amateur member of the owner's family. In either case, classes are restricted to riders who are no longer eligible to compete as junior exhibitors. Leased horses are not eligible, and multiple ownership is not permitted unless all owners are members of the same family.
    a. An amateur who rides for a person outside of his/her family may not ride in a class restricted to Amateur Owners at the same competition. BOD 1/18/09 Effective 12/1/09"

    It's for jumpers only.

    Hunter cross entering is part of zone specs.



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep. 24, 2001
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    on the road.....again
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    Default

    the new rule states nothing about cross entering between the adult's and AO's. It is simply to make the Jumpers follow the same AO rules that has been in effect for the hunters for MANY years.

    They are trying to make things EASIER to understand, but having them rules the same.

    And I believe this came from the USHJA Amateur committee. They felt that it would be easier to understand if they match, and I tend to agree.

    It was very hard to explain to someone why you could do it one way in the jumpers, but not in the hunters.

    Cross entry between the adults and AO, is governed by each zone.

    This rule only states that if you show in an AO class, you must own (or USEF lease) all the horses you show over fences at that show (you can still hack for someone with mulitple rides in an U/S)



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun. 19, 1999
    Location
    Averill Park NY and Citra Fl
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    5,575

    Default

    If so many people didn't feel the need to cheat (or test the limits of the rules) there would be no need to over legislate....but fear not, if they enforce the rules like they do the EXISTING rule, no one needs to worry. Business as usual basically...
    The thing about smart people, is they look like crazy people, to dumb people.



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug. 21, 2001
    Location
    southern nj
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    Default

    Amateurs who show in the owner divisions can show a horse they don't own in equitation classes, so if you need to try something, show it there.



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug. 18, 2006
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    536

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KJW View Post
    the USEF once again appears to be an overlegislative monopoly with this rule change
    THIS is the problem. Until the USEF has some competitive market forces encouraging their rules to fall in line with the interests of the average competitor, its going to be more of the same.



  10. #10
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    Aiken, SC
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    Quote Originally Posted by twobays View Post
    THIS is the problem. Until the USEF has some competitive market forces encouraging their rules to fall in line with the interests of the average competitor, its going to be more of the same.
    Define 'average exhibitor'

    If it's an amateur owner with a string of show horses that he or she shows themselves then there might be a problem with the new rule.

    If it's someone who shows one horse that maybe doesn't even belong to them then the new rule isn't a problem.

    But JumpHigh is right, if everyone obeyed the rules no need to keep closing loopholes and the odds of it being enforced without protests is slim anyway.



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jul. 24, 2006
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    Seattle, WA
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    Default

    The thing that I find so funny is that the AO Jumpers have a hard enough time filling as is. Doesn't seem like MORE restrictions is what the division needs! As it is I'm always competing against a bunch of the Juniors with maybe one or two other AOs in the group.....only time I see straight AO competition is in the year end results (since we all often end up at different shows).

    Of course I don't have a very unbiased feeling about all of this. I'm seriously irritated that thanks to my zone, I can't show my green(er) TB in the AA jumpers while showing my mare in the AO Jumpers, meaning that I'm limited with what I can do on my TB at a time when he needs more rounds. And the thing that has me so annoyed is the fact that the regulation does nothing to prohibit competition consistently....if I just bring my TB I can show in the AAs, but if I bring them both I can't.

    I understand that they're trying to make as level of a playing field as possible, but as it's been said many times over.....RULES ONLY RESTRICT THOSE WHO PLAY BY THEM! Which is seriously frustrating as I watch so many others find loopholes and straight out break them!



  12. #12
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    Mar. 28, 2001
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    Aiken, SC
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    Default

    [quote=PNWjumper;3998278]
    Of course I don't have a very unbiased feeling about all of this. I'm seriously irritated that thanks to my zone, I can't show my green(er) TB in the AA jumpers while showing my mare in the AO Jumpers, meaning that I'm limited with what I can do on my TB at a time when he needs more rounds. And the thing that has me so annoyed is the fact that the regulation does nothing to prohibit competition consistently....if I just bring my TB I can show in the AAs, but if I bring them both I can't.

    /quote]

    Isn't the AA jumper restriction in your zone based on the horse/rider combo? Just curious.



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Sep. 15, 2006
    Posts
    1,509

    Default How about drop the whole BS rules for just one Ammy rule...

    If more than 20% of your income comes from Horses, and that includes teaching, riding, showing, sales, etc. THEN YOU ARE A PROFESSIONAL, if less than 20% you can qualify as an ammy....

    And Maybe 20% is too much, but set it at such a level that it would be easy to figure out who is and who isn't an ammy. as far as horse sales go, divide the selling price, by the number of years the person has owned the horse and that is what counts for the year they sell the horse. I would think that would keep someone who had a very nice horse sell, they could still be an ammy by the rules and not be penalized for having a very nice horse sold...
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  14. #14
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    Aug. 18, 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by PineTreeFarm View Post
    Define 'average exhibitor'

    If it's an amateur owner with a string of show horses that he or she shows themselves then there might be a problem with the new rule.

    If it's someone who shows one horse that maybe doesn't even belong to them then the new rule isn't a problem.

    But JumpHigh is right, if everyone obeyed the rules no need to keep closing loopholes and the odds of it being enforced without protests is slim anyway.

    I was defining "average competitor" as someone who wasn't breaking/bending the amateur rules.



  15. #15
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    recent FL transplant from IL
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    Quote Originally Posted by Molly99 View Post
    the new rule states nothing about cross entering between the adult's and AO's. It is simply to make the Jumpers follow the same AO rules that has been in effect for the hunters for MANY years.

    They are trying to make things EASIER to understand, but having them rules the same.

    And I believe this came from the USHJA Amateur committee. They felt that it would be easier to understand if they match, and I tend to agree.

    It was very hard to explain to someone why you could do it one way in the jumpers, but not in the hunters.

    Cross entry between the adults and AO, is governed by each zone.

    This rule only states that if you show in an AO class, you must own (or USEF lease) all the horses you show over fences at that show (you can still hack for someone with mulitple rides in an U/S)
    This was my understanding as well & I have to agree--why should the AO jumper riders get to show anybody's horse at the same show, but the AO hunter riders aren't given the same opportunity? Making it equal makes it easier to understand & remember & follow.
    "I'm not crazy...my mother had me tested"



  16. #16
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    I'm glad the jumper and hunter rules match now. It was confusing, and seemed very unequal, and frankly there seems to be a lot of confusion over that part of the rule anyway.
    I don't think though that the a/a exhibitors in the zones that allow cross entry would be pleased if they had removed the restriction from the a/o hunter rules instead of adding it to the jumpers. Having to own any other horses they show keeps the a/o riders from catch riding in the a/a, at least at the same show.
    As an a/o rider though, I'd be very pleased if they did take it out .



  17. #17
    Join Date
    May. 28, 2008
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    772

    Default

    I do think this rule goes a long way towards leveling the playing field and keeping shamateurs from cross-entering willy-nilly. On the other hand, yes, it does make it really difficult to try a horse at a show.

    On that note, however, I raise another question; in the jumper classes, would it be possible to show the trial horse hors-concours (spelling is probably all wrong there )? That would allow the rider to try the horse in a show environment without messing with the scoring for a class. For example, say I show a horse in the A/O jumpers (this sentence should clue you in automatically that this is a hypothetical situation ). I see a horse later in the day that I must have. I take Horse B into a 1.2m schooling jumper class, hors-concours, and get to jump it around to try it. Legal?
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by PineTreeFarm View Post
    Isn't the AA jumper restriction in your zone based on the horse/rider combo? Just curious.
    Nope. In my zone, if I ride one horse in the AO Jumpers (even if it's AO low or, in the case of one RIDICULOUS show, AO low held at 1.20m) I cannot ride any other horse in the AA jumpers. I mean seriously? I can't show one horse at 3'11" (1.20m) and another at 3'7" (1.10m)? I can understand prohibiting a horse/rider combo from entering both divisions.....or even a horse, for that matter. But prohibiting the rider from riding at both levels on THEIR OWN HORSES doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Again, I understand it's yet another attempt at creating a level playing field, but that doesn't mean I have to like it!

    It's probably worth mentioning that I also have a huge problem with the dumbing down of jumper heights. I don't think they should be allowed to call any class lower than 4'6" Junior or AO Jumpers. I think that they should stick to different class names for the amateur "middle ground" between Ch/AA and Jr/AO. But that's a whole 'nother thread.



  19. #19
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    May. 24, 2007
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    The whole set of restrictions is crazy! At a dressage show, I could (theoretically) show my Grand Prix horse at intermediare II and Grand Prix, and show the youngster that I'm bringing along at training level and first level, and it wouldn't matter at all except I would have to have two different coats. The horse should be limited to the appropriate division, not the rider.



  20. #20
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    Nov. 15, 1999
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    Middleburg VA and Southampton NY
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    Default

    A/O=someone who is ABLE (for whatever reason) to own all the horses they ride

    A/A=Maybe same as above, but also maybe someone who is able to lease, or borrow

    A/A who wants to jump higher than 3' in the hunter ring, or who wants to jump higher than the AA divs in the jumper ring must go in the open divisions, or just jump higher at home.

    AA's who want to move up need to be (for whatever reason) able to own all their horses to continue to compete against other amateurs.

    A/O's need to be O's or not show their own horses in the AO divisions. They will still be able to show their own horses while they test drive someone else's horse in the open to all divisions--they will just have to enter the open divisions themselves with their horses that week, that's all.



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